New 52 Superman fans, what do we do now?

[Last Son of Krypton]

Another potential, wishful thinking-like silver lining; if Rebirth doesn't do well, maybe that'll finally be the straw that breaks the camel's back and by the time Superman is slated to return, it will be with a fresh regime. New editor and all. Of course if Berganza gets to keep his position after his disastrous run I don't know what would have to happen to at least get him moved.

I too hope that in 6 months/1 year at most, Superdad is gone and Berganza with him, although I suspect that behind this Superdad thing there's DC (Didio and co.) and not Berganza.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I can't believe people in charge actually went "You know what, I know we rebooted the Universe 5 years ago and all people are asking are quality stories, less crossovers and more respect for the fans, but how about we just ignore all that and bring back the old Superman while keeping the new continuity, because we can have our cake and eat it too, right guys?!

I don't know why you can't believe it. Because to me it's very similar to what they did when they introduced The New 52 in the first place.

I'm not talking about whether the content of The New 52 was good or bad, or whether I prefer New 52 Superman to SuperDad or vice versa. I'm talking about the way it was done, and how readers who really follow the stories were treated.

DC had recently introduced some fairly major changes into their universe (most in-continuity, some through fairly small retcons) by way of the whole Identity Crisis through Final Crisis cycle, and then Blackest Day and Brightest Night. They retconned Wonder Woman so that she now started her career and joined the JLA at the same time as the other major players. (I thought it always should have been that way, my one disappointment with the Perez Wonder Woman.) I wanted to see, through flashbacks, how that would affect Diana's history, and Donna Troy's. They introduced a new Aqualad, and I was very interested in him, his backstory, and his story going forward. The created a new situation/quest with Hawkman, and I wasn't thrilled with it because it put Hawkgirl offstage (I'd go the other way), but still I was willing to see it play out. And those are just a few examples.

See, this is what many readers (or audience members, for TV) - particularly the most devoted readers, the ones who pay attention, the ones who engage with the stories - do. They get interested. they get intrigued by ongoing conflicts, and relationships, and mysteries. Even after a lousy issue or a lousy story arc, they (usually) come back next month because they want to know what happens next. And they expect follow-through. Personally, I think these are good audience members to have.

What happened next? Boom! First we got Flashpoint, a dystopian nightmare of a DCU that somehow resulted from Barry Allen's sad failure to fix his evil, time-traveling enemy's changes to history - although Flashpoint did not in any logical or organic way flow from Flash's situation and actions. It was simply an arbitrary new timeline. And then it was gone and we got The New 52 - whose changes also didn't flow logically or organically from what had come before, but instead depended on the quite arbitrary actions of the "mystery character" Pandora, who had something in mind. (I still don't know what. I may never.)

Wonder Woman's new status, and how it would be fit in with what one usually calls "existing continuity"? The new Aqualad? Hawkman's search for Hawkgirl? All the bright, recent changes I had allowed myself to get invested in (to a greater or lesser extent)? Dropped unceremoniously. No follow-though.

It's not necessarily easy to get readers to be interested. But they threw it away like it was worth nothing, or like they could have the readers equally interested six months later. And with some, of course, they could. But it was difficult for me to get invested in The New 52, given the so-recent demonstration that DC felt no obligation to pay off that interest. Fool me once, shame on you, and all that stuff. (Again, I am not talking here about whether the content of The New 52, considered in a vacuum, was good or bad. I'm just talking about the way they regarded the interests of the fans of their serial fiction.)

I know DC wasn't selling great. I know fans wanted changes - quality stories, less crossovers, etc. But did anybody really ask for The New 52?

I was around for Crisis on Infinite Earths. Some of the same issues can be raised for that series, but in my experience it was very different. The lead-up to it, and the year-long series, were designed to bring the reader along, to make it feel like - despite all the cosmic contrivances and deus ex machina aspects - the new DCU followed in a narrative way from the old one. (I'm not saying "it was the same multiverse, only different." I'm saying that there was some coherence to the process of change.) I felt like the pre-CoIE DCU, and many of its characters, got a good and respectful send-off. And that that was more respectful to my expectations as a fan, and more likely to help transfer my existing interest over to the new DCU. (I realize that not everyone agrees. That's fine.)

(I'll mention that I wasn't exactly thrilled with some of the follow-through in the post-CoIE universe. It seemed like they hadn't thought some things out, and that they made some major changes to direction mid-stream. I also feel like those sorts of problems were much worse in The New 52. Also, the post-CoIE DCU kept a lot more of the history and legacy of the DCU than The New 52 did. But that's not really the point I'm trying to make in this post.)

For me this connects somewhat to the stated policy of Story Over Continuity. (A phrase that never made sense to me, because, in serial fiction, I consider the continuity to be as much a part of the story as the dialogue, pacing, and characterization. I realize not everyone agrees. That's fine.) People act like that means: "Just because Alan Scott was left-handed in All-Star Squadron #7 doesn't mean you should get all upset because he's shown to be right-handed in Infinity, Inc. #20 - you nit-picking, obsessive, older fans who live in your mothers' basements, you!" But increasingly what it means is: if we want to make a change to a character's history, personality, or relationships - because the writer has a Really Good Story to go with it, or because the editors and publishers have somehow decided that the readers will like it better (this month) - we see no reason to work up to those changes through the use of storytelling over time. We'll just do it, either through proclamation, or through some deus ex machina technique that's "technically in continuity" but really doesn't follow in a narrative sense. Because why not? Story Over Continuity. Skip the details, they're boring or too much work. We'll have our cake and eat it to.

So that's why I can easily believe they're going to make this sudden change to Superman, and all the rest. (Assuming, of course, that they are - we don't really know yet what they're going to do. All these discussions are based on hints and clues.) Because it matches the attitude they've shown towards their readers of serial fiction since the introduction of The New 52, since Flashpoint.

And it's this attitude - more than any particular point of continuity, more than which version of Superman they're going to settle on (this month) - that is driving me away from DC comics.

[Agniwolf]

now that is a really good and solid argument

i really like how solid your arguments are Bifrost, even in the cases i end not liking some, i certaily respect them

and this one i really do have to agree, maybe if they were to release an ogn to give the so deserved closure to those fans many fights between the new/old fans could be avoided

[friendly-fire-press]

Agreed, guys. Like I've said, they don't know what to do with him. Which is a shame. Superman is the freaking most important character at DC (or at least he should be).

Absolutely. He spawned the DC universe and the superhero genre itself. He deserves to be treated with utmost respect. Part of that respect IMO means keeping him modern and versatile (which IMO the N52 version offered)

I agree 100 % with friendly fire. Besides, it's not like they're gonna use them (at least not anytime soon/ that I know of). With Lois, they basically did everything they could do, sans Jon.

BTW, now that I think about it, perhaps DC was trying to get those two back ever since new52 started, given the Superboy origin thing. Which makes me think why would they even reboot Supes in the first place.

Yeah. One starts to wonder. Mind you, I sometimes suspect that the Superman/ Wonder Woman relationship was the main reason for the N52 ... it was probably the biggest creative shake-up to have occurred at DC in the last 5 years (in many ways even longer) ... and the only legit way to do it, while bypassing the marriage to Lois, was to start everything over

[Sacred Knight]

I really doubt Superman/Wonder Woman was any sort of major factor in the New 52. To me the conventional knowledge makes the most sense; they had decided Superman was a disaster and need of a reboot, and in brainstorming it became even bigger than just Superman, and they began turning Flashpoint into a major resetting event. The idea to do Superman and Wonder Woman together I would imagine was something born out of the ideas of what to do with fresh, rebooted versions of them. I think removing the marriage was a huge reason for wanting to reboot Superman, on the other hand. I just think the idea with Clark and Diana came about in the aftermath of the idea to reboot in the first place.

[Tayswift]

Yeah, I remember quite well. I was absolutely against the reboot until Morrison's name came up, months after the announcement. And I had been reading those post-Crisis books for about sixteen years or so. I understand completely what was lost. I also understand what was gained with the fresh start, and what we're losing this time around.



No, they likely want this to sell. Regretfully, they've no real idea of how to make it sell. Which is the problem, not the lack or presence of our preferred versions. That stuff is window dressing, it has virtually no impact on the quality of the product beyond appealing (or not) to our subjective tastes. And the fandom isn't united enough so that appealing to just one group's tastes will bring in those sales DC is after.

Well if they appeal to a minority of course it won't sell. People already saying that won't buy, so how they will know it will appeal to their tastes?

Two wrongs dont make a right. When the original Crisis crapped over 50 years of history, it wasn't cool to tell those fans the get over it. When post-Crisis was replaced it wasn't right then either. And it's still not right now.

sure, but it's not that I will care now after my fave version was unfairly scrapped.

Exactly. So don't come out with this "They said it to us so its only right to say it back" stuff.

I don't care, we all know how things are and they thought they would be on top forever. of course I knew it would end sooner or later. I think is 100% fair repeat oops i guess I'm new 52 superman.

Those fans have the right, and I would even argue the duty, to not support choices they see as wrong. Just as the fans who like any given current status quo or development have the right and duty to support it. I've been a Superman fan for a long damn time, and even I wont support his books blindly. Allowing DC to give us second rate talent and crap stories does not help the character.

if only was second rate artists, rebirth has 3 of the best artists on comics right now.
the writers aren't the fresh and hipsters, I really don't like Mahnke, but I like jurgens and how he treat very well fans.

Dont be so sure. It was considered common sense that DC wouldnt go back to post-Crisis not six months ago. Its not outside the realm of possibility that this is just a Super version of JimBats, and within a year's time Superdad will be gone again.

And no, it's not Superdad's fault that the last half (half! A whole decade!) of his time was fraught with terrible stories and declining sales. He's not real. But the same people who squandered the popularity of the Triangle Era are the ones currently in charge. So if you think that this version will somehow fix the line....well....good luck with that.

If DC will discard prenew52 Superman, it won't be new 52 because of low sales and the fact that he is reject by many superman fans. Going back to new 52, DC would suicide the superman books

even n his last decade there was johns and busiek runs that were good, too bad it was awimming in a lot of crap stories

[Sacred Knight]

Your version wasn't unfairly scrapped. He was rebooted after a mostly healthy 25 year run and was at the point where his history, regardless by the fault of his caretakers, had become unruly and unsalvageable. Superman needed a reset and got it. It made some people unhappy and others happy, end of story. This situation is completely incomparable.

In the end though, its not about fair or unfair. And it sure as hell isn't about being owed anything or not as a fan. It is what it is. I think this move is a bad one and will argue against it as much as I feel like, but I won't claim I'm personally being treated unfairly or I deserve something special. I don't. I just feel its a bad idea and have the option not to support it, which is an option I will take.

[Tayswift]

It's amazing how most feel that the "old" Superman is going backwards and somehow the New 52 Superman was going forward. You do know that once a long time ago, all of your arguments were the same with John Byrne's Superman. People complained that he wasn't the first superhero or that he was to depowered, or Pa and Ma Kent were alive, etc.

Look, I feel for you guys, and at least there will be a closure or continuance, us readers of Byrne's Superman didn't get closure, there was no "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" storyline, no last goodbye to Superman and his supporting characters. One month it was Flashpoint, than New-52.

And I am sure DC has a failsafe if this bombs worse than New-52 but I'm glad to see old Supes back. But as I stated previously I would have enjoyed it more if Superman, Lois with son went back to their world, so I can continue to read their adventures via Action Comics and have the current New-52 Superman in Superman.

Never will cease to amuse me the: new 52 is forwards but pre new 52 is backwards.

the thing is that everything I liked on superman cartoon, smallville, post-crises, movie, were mostly absent on new 52. they made him a "kewl" character that felt like a parody.

Your version wasn't unfairly scrapped. He was rebooted after a mostly healthy 25 year run and was at the point where his history, regardless by the fault of his caretakers, had become unruly and unsalvageable. Superman needed a reset and got it. It made some people unhappy and others happy, end of story. This situation is completely incomparable.

he wasn't unsalvageable in any way. DC just gave up on him. this thing of abandoning characters just because didio and le hate married characters is destroying DC

[Doctor Bifrost]

now that is a really good and solid argument

i really like how solid your arguments are Bifrost, even in the cases i end not liking some, i certaily respect them

and this one i really do have to agree, maybe if they were to release an ogn to give the so deserved closure to those fans many fights between the new/old fans could be avoided

Thank you for your kind words.

[Sacred Knight]

Moar theory time:

Here's what's gonna happen. Superman's sick. Probably dying because, well, DC. So, he forms this Super League to take over for him, Meets Superdad and is happy that there's another Superman around and he joins the team. From the Fortress of Solitude however he gets a message coming from the Phantom Zone Projector. Its Shay Veritas, whose been trapped in there ever since Doomed. She knows that once, a long time ago Superman had a sick friend and he came up with the idea to put him in the Phantom Zone to stall his illness till such time that a cure could be found. That man's name was Lar Gand, aka Mon-El, and he has met Shay in the Zone and they want him to do the same thing that Superman once did for him. From the Zone she can use her skills to try and craft a cure, maybe for them both. Superman agrees and he has his emotional goodbyes with Lana, Lois, Jimmy, Bruce, Kara and of course Diana. Unwilling to leave his side, Krypto goes with him, and off to the Phantom Zone they go. To Be Continued.

he wasn't unsalvageable in any way. DC just gave up on him. this thing of abandoning characters just because didio and le hate married characters is destroying DC

He was completely unsalvageable. His history was a mess, His origin required what would have been a fourth rewriting, the marriage was completely stagnant and weighing down both Lois and Clark with no reasonable way out outside of divorce. Reboot was the only answer. That's what he needed, and that's what he got. And Lol@the idea of no marriage destroying comics. This industry has survived nearly 80 years with very, very few superhero characters ever getting married. You're just continuing to make up stuff that has absolutely no root in reality. Marriage has nothing to do with it. Because you're mad that they got rid of a relationship you personally liked does not trump that near century worth of history. One would have to be staggeringly self-entitled to think that. Some superheroes get married. The majority of them don't. And time keeps spinning.

[DieHard200904]

Never will cease to amuse me the: new 52 is forwards but pre new 52 is backwards.

the thing is that everything I liked on superman cartoon, smallville, post-crises, movie, were mostly absent on new 52. they made him a "kewl" character that felt like a parody.



he wasn't unsalvageable in any way. DC just gave up on him. this thing of abandoning characters just because didio and le hate married characters is destroying DC

Lol. He sold better back when he was canonically single. There's a lot more complexity to why he doesn't sell now as compared to years ago. (More competition, customer preference, less liking from the general population, etc.)

Look at his general sales data from 1970s, 1960s, etc.

[Ascended]

EDIT:

Nevermind. Not worth wasting my time with.

[cgh]

I don't care for married characters as I feel they quickly become stagnant and it limits the story possibilities. And I especially don't like super-powered kids. Maybe this is because I'm happily married myself and I like my fantastical fiction to be well removed from pedestrian, domestic reality. So I doubt I'll read any sort of married Superman books for that reason.

I do wonder if the people who care a lot about married characters and find value in a character's interpersonal relationships in general are perhaps lacking those things in their real lives. If so, then I certainly can't begrudge them wanting to see Superman married to Lois Lane with kids and so forth if it fills some sort of a void. It's just not for me.

[Ascended]

Damn double posts.

[Flash Gordon]

I love grown up characters with grown up lives. Married Superman is great, I'm not sure about a Superkid (could easily be an annoying Scrappy-Doo) but everything else about it is fine. It just sucks that it has to be a doppelganger.

I'll continue to check out some books here and there. SUPERGIRL has me, prolly SUPERWOMAN too.