New 52 Superman fans, what do we do now?

[Tayswift]

Actually, I got the impression that Rucka was retreating from a lot of the Azzarello stuff and going back to a more Perez style origin.

The book is supposed to jump between a story happening now, and one digging into her origin, right?

I mean, I could be completely wrong, but unless I am either misinformed or dont know details you do, there's hope that you'll get something, if not exactly the same, then much closer to what you want. At least as far as her origin goes.

But I dont go to the WW boards anymore, that place is too.....well it makes the Superboard look like one big happy family, so I very well might have missed stuff.

I think that everyone is unfair to WW fans. Superman fan always got much better.

But now with rebirth? the reception was great. here on superman boards? a tragedy with lots of complaining.

Rucka didn't said what he was going to retcon, just that he will give consistency to WW.

but BIFROST is right, we won't get a continuation to what Rucka was doing with her never again. that version is lost.

[SuperCrab]

Here you go.

Thanks!

Are HTML images not allowed in signature files on this forum? The HTML markup and message code specific markup don't seem to be doing it for me.

[Tayswift]

I know right? This place was divisive enough, but now sometimes I feel like I should duck my head so I dont get shot.

Its been better than it was right after the announcements, though. I think even Sacred is a little less rage-filled. Though I dont think Super-Crab is going to get over this anytime soon.

As for Diana, I was, and still am, in favor of keeping Azzarello's origins. I dont agree with everything he did, but just about all of it opens doors for Diana herself to lead her people to a better way, which is something I'd like to see (and Id argue it was clearly Azzarello's intent too). I havent read the book since the Finch's came on, so I have very little idea of whats been happening (other than Donna Troy is alive again, or maybe for the first time, and apparently is evil, except in Titans Hunt, or something?) but I'd rather see Rucka build on what has been done than spend his time backtracking so we end up where we were six years ago (Odyssey tacking on that extra year). Im not a fan of going backwards. But I have faith that, no matter what he writes here, Rucka will provide a story worth reading.

As for the trade waiting....only 3 bucks for that first issue man. If it were me, Id make the investment, just to see what Rucka has planned

the whole thing about wonder owman guiding amazons to a better place completely ignores what amazons are. It's not like kents are bad people or waynes are bad people

[SuperCrab]

But you know what? Most of you seem pretty sure that you'll get "your" Superman back in a year or two.

I am very pessimistic on that count. I'm not sure whether to attribute the burst of optimism that some folks have that new52 Superman will be back to retake his rightful place as Superman long-term to people being in the "denial" stage of grief, the average Superman reader just being more optimistic than the average person (Superman is a pretty optimistic guy himself), or me just being more pessimistic than the average person, but I think the plan for DC Comics is to insert SuperDad and they'll only abort if sales force them to.

Most likely, they will slowly try to make it like Superdad has been there all along by muddying up new52 characters' ages, personalities, and personal histories with their predecessors, and SuperDad's history, so that a new reader come a couple years from now will just think it's been one long continuous thing. They'll have to acknowledge that new52 Superman was there and that SuperDad wasn't for a while in the comics, but slowly, over the course of years, they'll just stop mentioning it and then let "errors" creep in where the characters talk like it didn't happen, etc. would be my guess. As a fan of the new52 Superman, it's sounds pretty grim.

I mean, it's true, nobody stays dead in comics, but if new52 Superman shows up in a couple issues in a big crossover as a hero or a villain five or ten years and then goes away again, that doesn't mean much to me. I'll be long moved on to other books, and it's just a cameo. It'd be like reading Superman books faithfully just waiting for a character from the Legion of Superheroes to show up- give it long enough, one probably will, even if they no longer exist in a given timeline, but I'm not sure that issue or three make the other hundred or so you're reading to get there worth it if you don't like what they are selling otherwise.

I hope I'm wrong. And I could be. We'll see.

But in the absence of solid information to the contrary, I think it makes sense for me to assume the worst here.

[Sacred Knight]

The optimism increased because solicits have given away that this is a Reign of the Supermen homage, if not intended as a direct sequel. And a Superman returns at the end of Reign of the Supermen. That's what did it for me at least. The dots just connect too easily for me to believe its coincidence. Is it a 100% sure thing? Obviously not since none of us are on the inside. But I'm as sure as sure can get now without outright being told he is coming back by someone at DC.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's back in less than a year to be honest, considering how much extra story they can churn out with the bi-monthly format.

[DieHard200904]

I am very pessimistic on that count. I'm not sure whether to attribute the burst of optimism that some folks have that new52 Superman will be back to retake his rightful place as Superman long-term to people being in the "denial" stage of grief, the average Superman reader just being more optimistic than the average person (Superman is a pretty optimistic guy himself), or me just being more pessimistic than the average person, but I think the plan for DC Comics is to insert SuperDad and they'll only abort if sales force them to.

Most likely, they will slowly try to make it like Superdad has been there all along by muddying up new52 characters' ages, personalities, and personal histories with their predecessors, and SuperDad's history, so that a new reader come a couple years from now will just think it's been one long continuous thing. They'll have to acknowledge that new52 Superman was there and that SuperDad wasn't for a while in the comics, but slowly, over the course of years, they'll just stop mentioning it and then let "errors" creep in where the characters talk like it didn't happen, etc. would be my guess. As a fan of the new52 Superman, it's sounds pretty grim.

I mean, it's true, nobody stays dead in comics, but if new52 Superman shows up in a couple issues in a big crossover as a hero or a villain five or ten years and then goes away again, that doesn't mean much to me. I'll be long moved on to other books, and it's just a cameo. It'd be like reading Superman books faithfully just waiting for a character from the Legion of Superheroes to show up- give it long enough, one probably will, even if they no longer exist in a given timeline, but I'm not sure that issue or three make the other hundred or so you're reading to get there worth it if you don't like what they are selling otherwise.

I hope I'm wrong. And I could be. We'll see.

But in the absence of solid information to the contrary, I think it makes sense for me to assume the worst here.

No need to feel bad over something. If it doesn't entertain you or offer you that escapism/stress relief, enjoy the old stuff, or try Supreme or something else similar to Superman. I would not care if there are two, that means two cities can be covered by two Supermen and more people saved.

[Prime]

Has there been an uproar in any other site? Or are they ok with this?

[Last Son of Krypton]

Has there been an uproar in any other site? Or are they ok with this?

About the same as here, there're those who hate the idea for its stupidity and there're people who are toasting to Superman's death and the return of the "one and true" Superdad.

[SuperCrab]

The optimism increased because solicits have given away that this is a Reign of the Supermen homage, if not intended as a direct sequel. And a Superman returns at the end of Reign of the Supermen. That's what did it for me at least. The dots just connect too easily for me to believe its coincidence. Is it a 100% sure thing? Obviously not since none of us are on the inside. But I'm as sure as sure can get now without outright being told he is coming back by someone at DC.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's back in less than a year to be honest, considering how much extra story they can churn out with the bi-monthly format.

I'm not sure I'm remembering this quite right at this point, but I kind of vaguely recall Jurgens going over some of the Death of Superman/Reign of Superman stuff in one of these audio interviews he did. It sounded like he was happy with being able to surprise some people and confound expectations somewhat. Twists and turns, that sort of thing- a good idea in general, but maybe a bad sign for this run, if he gets to make the call, because if you wanted to surprise people, one way to do it would be to set up the same scenario as the early 90s, complete with cameos from some of the same villains and whatever you work in, maybe leaning back towards classic designs to deliberately evoke that era and those expectations in readers, and then have a completely different ending. This time Superman stays dead, because to them Superdad is Superman enough. That's part of why I don't really read much into any similarities- if anything, you'd want more similarities in the setup if you were going toward a different conclusion, so it's a bigger surprise, than if you were going for the same conclusion, because for the same conclusion you'd want to get there a different way so it isn't just a retread.

I'll admit, though, I tend to mentally prepare myself for the worst. That way I don't get blindsided as much. I guess if I sort of accept for it to go the way I don't want, and do whatever I would do in that event, drop my subscriptions (I've already dropped some, but I guess the final verdict isn't in on *everything*), find replacement subscriptions, whatever- the gut punch isn't as hard later as it is if I had talked myself into thinking it was going to go my way. If I'm wrong and it does go my way, it's a big relief and I can buy back issues if I don't get them as they come out and I find I want to read what I missed later.

I do run the risk of worrying over nothing, but the way editorial and the PR people are handling it seems almost designed to create uncertainty and try to leave everyone hanging on both sides of the fence (People who love or hate new52 Superman, and people who love or hate Superdad) figuring that the "losing" side may get hooked into the adventures of either the Superman they don't like, or the universe they don't like, and want to read more even if the Supermen switch again, or don't switch, depending on what you're rooting for. But I don't think that's very respectful of the fans for them to do it that way. I'd rather they be straightforward with us.

Of course, worrying over comics in general is probably the example sentence from the definition of "worrying over nothing" in a phraseology dictionary somewhere. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of life no matter what happens or doesn't happen, I suppose.

I would not care if there are two, that means two cities can be covered by two Supermen and more people saved.

Two is better than just SuperDad.

[Ascended]

I think that everyone is unfair to WW fans. Superman fan always got much better.

But now with rebirth? the reception was great. here on superman boards? a tragedy with lots of complaining.

Rucka didn't said what he was going to retcon, just that he will give consistency to WW.

but BIFROST is right, we won't get a continuation to what Rucka was doing with her never again. that version is lost.

Whatever, the Wonder-boards have earned their reputation. Trying to have a discussion over there is like trying to fight three different packs of rabid wolves who want to tear each other apart as much as they want to eat you. I used to post there all the time, but stopped because its the same arguments, made by the same posters, five years later.

And no, Rucka's not going to continue his old story, I dont think anyone is expecting that. But look at the promo art and Ares, and tell me they're not going backwards in at least some respects.

And Rucka and Scott on WW is great news. People are complaining here because we got something to complain about.

the whole thing about wonder owman guiding amazons to a better place completely ignores what amazons are. It's not like kents are bad people or waynes are bad people

So cultures can't change? Funny, I dont see any slaves around here. And I am quite sure a witch has not been burned in my lifetime, either.

Either way, this is not a discussion for this board, and I am done with it.

So, Ive been thinking, and I really could see a Superman Blue/Superman Red situation here. Among other things, that seems to be the story they go to when they're running out of steam, and if anything, DC management seem to have run out of steam with Superman.

[Sacred Knight]

I think it'll be Superman Red/Superman Blue in theory in the symbolism. Hence why Superdad was given blue boots instead of just a straight up classic look (minus the trunks which we know DC wants no part of anymore regardless). In spirit I'll see it more as a nod to Kal-El and Kal-L co-existing pre-Crisis, but the tangible symbolism in blue boots vs red boots I think will end up being revealed as quite intentional in its own right.

And that sounds all well and good. I'll be back for that. But that status quo won't magically fix DC's overall ineptness with the character. They still need better voices for Superman. In this case, they'll need better voices for BOTH of them going forward. Tomasi is earning some positive reputation with me recently, but outside of that really the only ones within DC who can write Superman worth a lick is Morrison and Pak. Only 2-3 guys knowing what they're doing with a character that is not THAT difficult to grasp is unacceptable. And yes, I'm leaving Jurgens out on purpose. I loved his 90s Superman and he was THE guy back then, but imo he's clearly not that guy anymore. His ideas, to this point, look like retreads, and even in his characterization he writes a much less likeable character than he used to write. Superdad is basically supposed to be the Superman I grew up with but I don't feel that with what I've read of him under Jurgens' pen. Its the secondary reason I'm not much a fan of him, as I'm just told he's that guy, but he doesn't remind me of that guy. Outside of the Convergence issues. There he was pretty spot on. But if anything once the mini started it feels like he's the one being given a forced "edge" that doesn't suit him. He's not wildly different but its subtle differences in his attitude and his actions that just rub me the wrong way. It feels like a bad copy of post-Crisis Superman, not actually post-Crisis Superman.

[Myskin]

Well, the return of Nuperman at a certain point is almost a fact as far as I am concerned, for a lot of reasons which are pretty well-known to the majority of people here.
The main problem I have with this choice is that, ultimately, doesn't mean anything from a narrative perspective. I mean, SuperDad and Nuperman are the same character. The only major difference is Jon. But their approach to fight crime and their personal traits are basically the same. I remember pre-FP stories where Superman behaved exactly like Nuperman and I remember New52 stories where Nuperman behaved like pre-FP Superman. Maybe they will emphasize some potential differences just to make the whole substitution thing a bit more significative, but that's it.

I mean... when all will be said and done, what will it ultimately mean for the character? Nuperman is more important than SuperDad? New52 Superman is the best version of the character ever? Why?
I hope that I will be proven wrong - maybe they are currently planning to write a Superman maxiseries in order to completely restructure Superman's universe - but I really cannot but see this as temporary gimmick to keep the sales alive. I don't have anything against gimmicks, but I've seen this happen so many times that I am not sure that I really feel like following it.

Yes, it is a homage to the Death of Superman story. So what? The Death of Superman, narratively speaking, is empty. It is still popular after decades, and a lot of people began reading Superman with the Death of Superman. But it is empty. It really doesn't say anything really relevant of the character. Superman himself is barely in the story.

My main impression is that they are targeting a specific demographic - people who currently are 30-40, and who could give a damn about a SuperDad story because they began to read Superman when they were 18 - and they are not doing anything to redesign the character for a younger generation of fans (well, except for Max Landis, of course). Even worse, they give a bad impression about their editorial choices because they seem incredibly insecure about the direction the whole DCU should take - New52 has never seemed so "Heroes Reborn" (that is, a temporary thing) as it is now. Is it really important to know that we will have a pre-Crisis earth, a post-Crisis earth, a New52 Earth, a whattheheck earth and so on? Shouldn't they simply decide where they want the stories to take place in and stick with it?

I've just watched Young Justice for the first time and I realized that the reason for the series to be so popular after so many years is that it didn't spend so much time in reintroducing the characters for the very first time or relaunching them (as, for example, The Batman did). Some of characters didn't even have a proper introduction even if it was their first appearance in a TV series. But they gave to all of the characters a good characterization and created a very complex narrative which made them compelling and interesting. That's what I'd really like to see, and not a perpetual remake of old concepts.

[Doctor Know]

I thought New 52 Supes is dying and he's currently saying his goodbyes to people. Is he sticking around after Rebirth?

[Myskin]

I thought New 52 Supes is dying and he's currently saying his goodbyes to people. Is he sticking around after Rebirth?

Nobody said that, but lots of us think that his death is just a temporary situation.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

DC could easily promote Superman more and build him back up.

But they'd have to decide what they're going to build him into first.

Meanwhile, Batman has a well established, thirty year foundation (based on even older material) proven to work very well, and they *know* what he is. So its not likely we're going to see DC or WB make the necessary changes.

What it will take is a strong, long run by a creative team in the comics, something that gets everyone's attention and lays the groundwork for a version that DC/WB can get behind. If they get that, something both commercially and critically acclaimed, and it proves to fit with whatever the people at WB want, they'll start pushing the character in that direction and his popularity will rise again. But its not going to be a top-down thing, it's gonna have to start at the ground level and work its way up, building enough cred and profitability that whoever sits on the next level will have no choice but to embrace it. Right now, I can think of, maybe, three writers in the industry who could pull that off, who have the both the imagination and the name-draw to bring the readers in. And none of them work at DC, and one of them never will.

Then, the question is: is it really that hard for them to decide what they want for Suoerman? If so, Superman is in worse hands than I thought. I mean, everyone has a clear idea of who Superman is and what he stands for, and there's a clear notion of what people want in terms of characterization. N52 Superman reunited, I believe, those criteria (although admittedly he wasn't written as consistently as he should have). There was a reason for n52 in the first place, right? Also, I think that movie, TV, animation and comic books should stay apart in terms of guidelines. Just let them do their thing. Well, my thoughts anyway.

As for the writers, I'm guessing you're thinking of Morrison, Millar, and Waid or Moore?