New 52 Superman fans, what do we do now?

[Ascended]

Then, the question is: is it really that hard for them to decide what they want for Suoerman? If so, Superman is in worse hands than I thought. I mean, everyone has a clear idea of who Superman is and what he stands for, and there's a clear notion of what people want in terms of characterization. N52 Superman reunited, I believe, those criteria (although admittedly he wasn't written as consistently as he should have). There was a reason for n52 in the first place, right? Also, I think that movie, TV, animation and comic books should stay apart in terms of guidelines. Just let them do their thing. Well, my thoughts anyway.

As for the writers, I'm guessing you're thinking of Morrison, Millar, and Waid or Moore?

I dont think its as easy to figure out a "made for mass consumption" Superman as we believe. I mean, if it was, even DC would have stumbled upon it by now. And Superman has had several vastly different versions; from the social crusader to the super scientist to the flag waving patriot to the Everyman in a cape. Each have their pro's and con's, and more importantly, their own rabid fanbase who often turn away from the other versions on principal.

And its not like we fans are easy to please. Superman's legend has grown beyond the capabilities of the character; there are fans of Superman the character and fans of Superman the idea, and fans of the idea are almost never happy because the character will never live up to the ideal, which changes from one fan to the next. I mean, just look at how differently some of us posters view Superman; my idea of what Superman is varies in almost every way from someone like tayswift, and Superlad and Flash Gordon both see him differently too (though those guys and I agree on more than we disagree on by far).

I do think the 52 was an attempt to mesh these different versions together into a palpable whole, and I think that if the quality had remained consistent after Morrison, it might have worked. Sadly, the solid concept was undone by questionable execution and it didn't have a chance to build itself up to the point where DC had to accept it, much less WB. That I lay at the feet of editorial, because both Idleson and Berganza allowed writers too much leeway; the 52 never gelled as his own entity because of that, and only writers like Pak and Lobdell tried to follow Morrison's blueprint. Too much variation, once again, within the franchise. Had Morrison been teamed up with better co-creators, and more importantly, better editors, the 52 might have been able to prove himself before he started dying. Funny, now that he's almost gone everyone is like "Hey, I love this guy! Why weren't they writing him like this all along?" Well, some of the writers were. Just not enough of them and everyone was too busy bitching about red underwear to notice anyway.

And the writers I was thinking of were actually Jonathan Hickman, Al Ewing, and Robert Kirkman (he's the guy who wont ever work for DC. At least until I get a job editing, and then I'll sweet-talk him into it ). Though any of the ones you mentioned would be great as well, and arguably are better options too, but they've all had their say on the character and I was thinking of new voices.

[Sacred Knight]

Although I think the boot differential is enough, if they want to go a step further to tell the difference, they could do something where Superdad's power fluxuations, and the overall stress of Reign story cause his hair to go gray on the sides. It'd be another Kal-L nod.

[Ascended]

I think that when (and if, still not sold on the theory) Superman returns, Superdad should definitely stop dying the gray out his hair (explaining how it shows up suddenly) and grow back the super-beard. Even with a little gray, it might be hard to tell them apart if a panel is just talking heads, and the beard would make the distinction immediate (as well as looking badass).

Though really, if the two of them do co-exist, they're going to need costumes that are more different than just red or blue boots. Letting Superdad stay in the classic costume would hush a lot of complaints, but even then Im not sure if its different enough, so a darker shade of blue and a costume more Man of Steel-ish for Superman might help.

Though I wouldnt be surprised if the costumes end up reversed versions of each other, to play up the Red/Blue thing.

Heh, maybe it'll all happen in time for the election, and they can dress according to their political party. Hmmm. I wonder, would Superman and Superdad belong to different parties? Are they different enough to belong to different sides of the aisle?

[SuperCrab]

I think that when (and if, still not sold on the theory) Superman returns, Superdad should definitely stop dying the gray out his hair (explaining how it shows up suddenly) and grow back the super-beard. Even with a little gray, it might be hard to tell them apart if a panel is just talking heads, and the beard would make the distinction immediate (as well as looking badass).

The beard makes sense to me as a differentiator (I have a beard myself). Not sure about the gray. Maybe just a touch of salt and pepper in the beard and the hair- not the big gray temple spots that the original Superman had- or even have him go full gray ala Sean Connery in the Hunt for Red October. For whatever reason, the temples-only gray didn't seem like a great look to me- but gray could be used to good effect in other ways. Aesthetics aren't my strong suit, though- or, rather, I should say, that my sense of aesthetics may differ from the market's sense.

Hmmm. I wonder, would Superman and Superdad belong to different parties? Are they different enough to belong to different sides of the aisle?

I kind of (but not definitively) think of new52 Superman as a Democrat, and SuperDad as a Republican. New52-Clark built his career on fighting for poor tenants against rich landlords through investigative journalism, quit when the Daily Planet was taken over by what seemed to be a stand-in for a FOX News type company, has had run-ins with General Lane, and stood with protesters against police violence to the point of punching a cop who was pummeling him (Who admittedly turned out to be under Wrath's control). He also patched things up with what appeared to be a stand-in for a particular Democratic President during the Truth arc, after some initial tension.

Didn't new52 Superman at one point do something in a country that was an obvious stand-in for Iran, where he dismantled their nuclear capability or something, and then advocated for closer ties between the US and that country? The initial action could be seen as Republican unilateralism, but then the followup could be seen as a Democratic attempt to find common ground and make peace with our historical enemies.

SuperDad-Clark detains prisoners without trial (ala Bush) and.... okay, that's all I've got for him being a Republican. It probably isn't cut and dry. SuperDad gave up his American citizenship at one point, and new52 Superman never did, although really that can be read a lot of different ways, and to even begin to process it in a political sense, in addition determining whether that's patriotic or unpatriotic under the circumstances, we'd have to decide which party is the most patriotic, which is a rabbit-hole I don't think we want to go down on a comic book forum.

Both Supermen seem to oppose a lot of wars, but obviously do use violence and consider it justified in certain circumstances- I'll rate that moderate to center-left Democratic. Both consider themselves defenders of the powerless against the powerful, which I tend to consider a Democratic stance, but that's admittedly really arguable, because they are obviously not government actors, and it's not like some Republicans don't stick up for the powerless in their apolitical private lives. Both refuse to kill in principle, which we could say is somewhat akin to a progressive stance of opposing the death penalty, but, again, there is sort of a juxtaposition here where we'd be equating a personal behavior to a political stance that these men may or may not have (Maybe they don't kill because they believe criminals have the right to a trial by jury and due process, but aren't necessarily opposed to capital punishment when exercised by the state. Have they ever said in the comics?).

SuperDad has more of an emphasis on personal responsibility, which sounds like the way a Republican would talk, although, really, again it's arguable. It's not like Democrats come out and campaign *against* personal responsibility as a concept.

On the other hand, SuperDad tends to be more likely to want to talk things out (Democratic) and new52 Superman tends to be more likely to throw a punch (Republican), but, let's face it, both Supermen like to throw punches and they both like to talk.

Both Supermen are technically illegal immigrants to the United States (SuperDad isn't even from this universe), so they probably are pro-path to legalization for undocumented workers, a Democratic stance.

If they were real, both would probably tell people that they don't take sides in partisan politics- both to maintain their role as objective reporters when out of costume, and to maintain their neutrality as defenders of everyone while in costume. I think they'd both get very ticked off if a politician of either party tried to use photos of himself or herself together with Superman in a campaign to get elected.

Was Superdad the Superman who got exposed to the pink kryptonite (For those who haven't heard, this was a type of kryptonite that turned Superman gay for an issue- it was done a long time ago, obviously.)? Or was that a prior incarnation of Superman? If it was Superdad, did he say anything about the experience afterwards? His position on gay rights would probably help position him on the political spectrum.

Both seem to be broadly, in a very general sense, feminist, embracing Lois' role in the workplace, and working with Wonder Woman on the field of battle (Does dating her make new52 more or less feminist?).

I'm a Democrat, but I tried to be fair to Republicans in this response. I don't really want to get into a political discussion. I'm just exploring the fictional characters here.

And, character wise, I think, in general terms, there are differences between new52 Superman and SuperDad when it comes to specific stances, but that they share a lot in common as well. It'd probably be fair to say that neither fit exactly into either political party's platform 100%, and though the two may be a few notches apart on a hypothetical line with progressive at one end and conservative at the other end, it wouldn't surprise me if they voted for the same party in the general election. Now, the primaries might be a different story...

There's differentiation, but of course not having it predefined and having a bunch of different simultaneous comics running written by a bunch of different writers for many years, all with their own approaches, probably means each character has said or done some contradictory things or taken contradictory approaches relative to their own past and future actions.

[Superlad93]

Hmmm. I wonder, would Superman and Superdad belong to different parties?

Question:

A man born from at least one Jewish immanent and has historically been a champion of social justice. Who am I talking about Bernie Sanders or Clark Kent lol

Also there's a guy who's very rich, "allegedly" questionable business dealings, likes naming things like towers and schools after himself, and comically and alpha male. Who am I talking about? Donald Trump or Lex Luthor? lol

Reality becoming as strange as fiction

[SuperCrab]

Also there's a guy who's very rich, "allegedly" questionable business dealings, likes naming things like towers and schools after himself, and comically and alpha male. Who am I talking about? Donald Trump or Lex Luthor? lol

Reality becoming as strange as fiction

Lex Luthor even wound up as President in SuperDad's universe for a while, right? And Superman opposed Luthor ascending to that high office and Luthor's actions once in it, I would assume?

[manofsteel1979]

Lex Luthor even wound up as President in SuperDad's universe for a while, right? And Superman opposed Luthor ascending to that high office and Luthor's actions once in it, I would assume?

Yeah I think it's safe to assume if Trump was the republican nominee in the Nu52 universe, both Supermen would vote for his opponent, as Trump IS Byrne era Post Crisis Luthor. In fact my theory is Trump is really is an alias for the Lex Luthor of EARTH -53 who came to our earth decades ago to escape it's destruction. I mean that thing on his head HAS to be a toupee of some type.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I dont think its as easy to figure out a "made for mass consumption" Superman as we believe. I mean, if it was, even DC would have stumbled upon it by now. And Superman has had several vastly different versions; from the social crusader to the super scientist to the flag waving patriot to the Everyman in a cape. Each have their pro's and con's, and more importantly, their own rabid fanbase who often turn away from the other versions on principal.

And its not like we fans are easy to please. Superman's legend has grown beyond the capabilities of the character; there are fans of Superman the character and fans of Superman the idea, and fans of the idea are almost never happy because the character will never live up to the ideal, which changes from one fan to the next. I mean, just look at how differently some of us posters view Superman; my idea of what Superman is varies in almost every way from someone like tayswift, and Superlad and Flash Gordon both see him differently too (though those guys and I agree on more than we disagree on by far).

Boy, do I know what you mean. I too have my specific vision of what Superman should be. But I meant like a general idea that can be "marketable". But perhaps people are right: there's not much you can change about Batman. There's a bunch of core traits for the character, and the rest starts from there. Superman is different in that sense. But hell, there has to be a way. There has to be something.

I do think the 52 was an attempt to mesh these different versions together into a palpable whole, and I think that if the quality had remained consistent after Morrison, it might have worked. Sadly, the solid concept was undone by questionable execution and it didn't have a chance to build itself up to the point where DC had to accept it, much less WB. That I lay at the feet of editorial, because both Idleson and Berganza allowed writers too much leeway; the 52 never gelled as his own entity because of that, and only writers like Pak and Lobdell tried to follow Morrison's blueprint. Too much variation, once again, within the franchise. Had Morrison been teamed up with better co-creators, and more importantly, better editors, the 52 might have been able to prove himself before he started dying. Funny, now that he's almost gone everyone is like "Hey, I love this guy! Why weren't they writing him like this all along?" Well, some of the writers were. Just not enough of them and everyone was too busy bitching about red underwear to notice anyway.

No arguments from me here. Personally I liked Lobdell's run very much, except from some OOC things here and there regarding SMWW. I also liked a lot Pak's run.

And then Convergence and Truth came along and everything went to hell. Damn it Morrison, why did you have to leave?

And the writers I was thinking of were actually Jonathan Hickman, Al Ewing, and Robert Kirkman (he's the guy who wont ever work for DC. At least until I get a job editing, and then I'll sweet-talk him into it ). Though any of the ones you mentioned would be great as well, and arguably are better options too, but they've all had their say on the character and I was thinking of new voices.

Interesting. New voices. I don't think I've read anything from those guys. What do you think their take on Superman would be like?

And yes, the writers I mentioned have written Suoerman already, but they love the character to death (don't know about Moore though, and sadly we will never know) and understand him. And I'm pretty sure they'd tweak a few things here and there to keep up with current times. I also thought of Marty Pasko and Elliot S! Maggin. I'm sure they'd do the same. Hell, there was a post by Marty Pasko from a few years ago in which he basically said what his take on Suoerman would be nowadays.

[Ascended]

The beard makes sense to me as a differentiator (I have a beard myself). Not sure about the gray. Maybe just a touch of salt and pepper in the beard and the hair- not the big gray temple spots that the original Superman had- or even have him go full gray ala Sean Connery in the Hunt for Red October. For whatever reason, the temples-only gray didn't seem like a great look to me- but gray could be used to good effect in other ways. Aesthetics aren't my strong suit, though- or, rather, I should say, that my sense of aesthetics may differ from the market's sense.

I kind of (but not definitively) think of new52 Superman as a Democrat, and SuperDad as a Republican. New52-Clark built his career on fighting for poor tenants against rich landlords through investigative journalism, quit when the Daily Planet was taken over by what seemed to be a stand-in for a FOX News type company, has had run-ins with General Lane, and stood with protesters against police violence to the point of punching a cop who was pummeling him (Who admittedly turned out to be under Wrath's control). He also patched things up with what appeared to be a stand-in for a particular Democratic President during the Truth arc, after some initial tension.

There's differentiation, but of course not having it predefined and having a bunch of different simultaneous comics running written by a bunch of different writers for many years, all with their own approaches, probably means each character has said or done some contradictory things or taken contradictory approaches relative to their own past and future actions.

That's a well thought out post right there. I cant say there's much there I disagree with.

As for capital punishment, there was an issue pre-Crisis where the Legion's Starboy was put on trial for killing a foe. Clark spoke in his defense, saying that he refuses to kill personally because he's powerful enough to be able to make that choice, but self-defense (which is what Starboy did) is justifiable. Clark has taken a few lives himself too, let's not forget. He certainly feels that lethal self-defense is acceptable, if not desirable. Given that, my personal feeling is that Clark might not like the death penalty (he'd likely see it as a waste) but I dont think he'd actively want it done away with either, because there's always that rare exception (would he really argue if Joker was sentenced to death by a court of law? I dont think he would).

The pink kryptonite thing predates Superdad by....maybe twenty years? I only vaguely recall that issue, but Im pretty sure it was mid-60's at the very latest, and very likely older. But Im pretty sure Clark has had gay friends and being who he is, he'd want them to be happy. So he certainly supports gay rights. Hell man, he's an alien. From his point of view you're probably not into weird stuff until you're mixing species, and then probably not until they're from different galaxies, if then.

[Ascended]

Interesting. New voices. I don't think I've read anything from those guys. What do you think their take on Superman would be like?

Hickman would likely spin a huge cosmic story that would make Morrison proud, but with a never-shifting personal focus on emotion and heart to keep it grounded. Check out his Fantastic Four and Avengers/New Avengers to get an idea. He's got the be one of the most talented guys around right now.

Ewing's style is intelligent and unashamedly fun. His plots tend to be straight forward superhero fair, but his plots flow and his dialogue is tremendously fun and solid. Read his Mighty Avengers, Loki: Agent of Asgard, or The Ultimates. Again, he's one of the best. Just a random quote from Might Avengers: "Fire-breathing were-rooster ninjas. That's right. Don't say we're not good to you." He's *that* kind of writer, and he's amazing. He'd write the most fun Superman of the names listed.

Kirkman is a lot like Ewing in that his superhero stuff walks the line of traditional, but he spins it around and tips it on its head. He writes incredible dialogue, and balances drama and action better than any other writer I can think of. You likely know him from Walking Dead, but check out Invincible, which is, no bullsh*t, the best superhero comic on earth.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Oh, now I'm intrigued. Thanks.

[Sacred Knight]

Sounds awesome. Of course if DC snagged any of these talents, they would be earmarked for Batman titles.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

And then I'd go to the DC offices and kick their asses. "HEY! All of you! Come here and form a line. I'll kick your asses one by one."

[Sacred Knight]

If I may switch to some negativity again though, I have a sinking suspicion its not going to matter if its Superdad solo, or Superman solo, or both Supermen co-existing. Because I'm terrified that the Justice League movie is going to completely destroy Superman in the public's consciousness. DC's comics division has been pretty inept with him for years, by what Snyder is going to do is just going to go above and beyond it seems.

[SuperCrab]

If I may switch to some negativity again though, I have a sinking suspicion its not going to matter if its Superdad solo, or Superman solo, or both Supermen co-existing. Because I'm terrified that the Justice League movie is going to completely destroy Superman in the public's consciousness. DC's comics division has been pretty inept with him for years, by what Snyder is going to do is just going to go above and beyond it seems.

It seems like a good bet that if there is a DC Comics going that does 30-60 monthly books, and they continue to own the Superman property, that at least *one* of those books is going to be a Superman book of some sort (May be fairly different from either of the two most recent Superman eventually) for at least the next few decades. His popularity may be diminishing, but he's iconic enough that it seems like he'd still generate at least as many sales as some of their lower rung books, with his support condensed to only one title if necessary, no matter how much less popular he becomes as the years pass.

I could be wrong, though. Captain Marvel was pretty popular at one time, and is temporarily without a book, but he had one until recently, and it sounds like they have plans for him in the future.

I would say if Superman comics stop being made, it's more likely because the comic book industry collapses in general, or DC Comics collapses (or nearly collapses) in particular.