Flashpoint vs. Rebirth

[Prisoner 6655321]

To be clear, this is a sincere question and not me poking at trolls. I realize it's kinda a sensitive topic but here goes…

Obviously Flashpoint and what came after is a pretty divisive stuff and I'm not asking anyone to justify their preferences. If you are a fan of post-Flashpoint DC who is feeling put off by Rebirth is there a reason why Rebirth offends your sensibilities in a way that Flashpoint did / does not? I ask this after going through the Superman board a bit, and it's something I'm not getting. While I understand preferences differ there seems to be an attitude held by some folks that Flashpoint and what came after holds some kinda .... I dunno, artistic justification, validity... something that they (you?) seem to feel is somehow missing from Rebirth. If you feel this is more or less the case for you, why is that so?

As for myself honestly, I still haven't made up my mind about Rebirth yet, it may be awesome or it may be a bomb, I don't feel like I have enough info. That said, I've been only keeping up with DC from library trades for some time now and am not at all pleased with the current status of DC.

[GlennSimpson]

I don't know that I've read the specific complaints you are referring to, but the only critiques of Rebirth that I could see are one of two things:

1. It doesn't change enough stuff.
2. It is dropping all of the "offbeat/experimental" stuff and focusing on the more popular, unfortunately generally less diverse, characters.

For #1, even if we take the hype at face value, DC never said "oh my god we completely screwed up" - they just said they realized something was missing. So they are putting that something back in, not doing a complete overhaul.

For #2, I think it's an unfortunate circumstance of the market nowadays. Hopefully DC will be able to get their sales back up to the point where they can start experimenting again.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I want great stories about the continuing adventures of the characters that have made DC great for over 75 years. The continuity quibbles only matter as much as it affects who those characters fundamentally are, including the major events and relationships that made them who they are.

I don't care if any particular comic from 2007 or 1993 or 1956 is "canon" or not. I just want the broad strokes of who that character is to be intact, so that creators and readers alike feel that these are indeed the next chapter of their adventures, rather than a completely new creation with an old name. I want to feel that there's forward momentum to this ever changing, ever evolving fiction mythology that was begun way back in 1938.

Whatever the "continuity" is at any particular moment is just window dressing, the really important thing is whether or not the characters we're reading about feel like themselves and are being given stories worthy of them.

Unfortunately, for me, that has not been the case with most of DC's output for many years now.

[MajorHoy]

. . . As for myself honestly, I still haven't made up my mind about Rebirth yet, it may be awesome or it may be a bomb, I don't feel like I have enough info. . .

Since we only know what DC is willing to tell us, we just have to wait until late May to see what exactly DC is going to actually deliver when it comes to Rebirth.

[cranger]

Since we only know what DC is willing to tell us, we just have to wait until late May to see what exactly DC is going to actually deliver when it comes to Rebirth.

$2.99 cover price and twice a month shipping. Honestly, everything else is just what happens after a creative switch up, event/major storyline or new editor coming in.

[MajorHoy]

$2.99 cover price and twice a month shipping. Honestly, everything else is just what happens after a creative switch up, event/major storyline or new editor coming in.

Not all the titles are twice a month. And there are a few wildcards in this (like who is Superwoman?).
We also have to see if they're doing any resets (and how?) to various changes that happened with DCYou, like what's happening with the reveal of Clark Kent as Superman; Bruce Wayne may be back as Batman, and he did get the mansion back, but what about his fortune and his businesses/foundations (which were grabbed up by Geri Powers, weren't they?); etc.

[Ascended]

Well, I feel like the question is a little slanted, since we've had five years to see how the 52 would play out, and nothing but some solicits for Rebirth.

From what little we know, it seems like Rebirth is doing what Flashpoint should have done; update and streamline the characters and histories without tossing the baby out with the bath water. I think its great that Ollie Queen is getting his goatee back, and if Percy is to be believed, his political leanings as well. I like the sound of what Rucka has planned for Wonder Woman, even if it likely means losing the cool stuff Azzarello did with the gods. Stuff like that is most welcome. Flashpoint tried too hard to be ALL NEW ALL NOW ALL KEWL and I felt like DC was embarrassed by their history and tried too hard to make everything movie-ready, if movies were still set in the 90's with an eye towards being "extreme" (which is something I hate to say because of how cheap those words are now, but stuff like Joker's face, the Catwoman-Batman sex scene, and the Starfire problems with the first issue of Outlaws forces me to say it)

I think Rebirth is sorely lacking in variety. It looks like our options are going to be: straight up superhero stuff, slightly grim superhero stuff set in Gotham, and anti-heroes. After the last several years where things like OMAC, Prez, Dial H, The Movement, Bizarro, and Sandman Overture were always going on, Rebirth feels awfully bland. I understand why DC is doing it, but still.

And really, I dont think we can even really compare them. Flashpoint was a reboot, regardless of what DC said at the time. Rebirth doesnt seem to be, its just a re-branding akin to what Marvel has been doing since 2012; shuffling creative teams and titles, cutting off the fat, with a couple costume changes thrown in for good measure.

The only exception here is Superman. Flashpoint rebooted Superman and gave us something amazing with Grant Morrison, the kind of fresh start the character desperately needed. Rebirth is destroying what little headway the Super-franchise has been able to build up, giving up on its potential, and seems to be going against the grain of most of the other Rebirth stuff as well. Which, if you're not a Superman fan, isnt a big loss. If you are a Superman fan, its a huge step backwards and actually fairly insulting.

[Lee Stone]

Rebirth feels like a last ditch effort... kinda like an all or nothing gamble where something really is at stake if it has DCYou numbers.
The image of Johns, Lee and Didio sitting in chairs with pictures of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman struck me weird... kinda like they're exhausted.
And when I saw it, I realized that it wasn't that long ago they were promoting New52, and then DCYou.
It's like the train just can't seem to get out of the station.

[Lightning Rider]

I want great stories about the continuing adventures of the characters that have made DC great for over 75 years. The continuity quibbles only matter as much as it affects who those characters fundamentally are, including the major events and relationships that made them who they are.

I don't care if any particular comic from 2007 or 1993 or 1956 is "canon" or not. I just want the broad strokes of who that character is to be intact, so that creators and readers alike feel that these are indeed the next chapter of their adventures, rather than a completely new creation with an old name. I want to feel that there's forward momentum to this ever changing, ever evolving fiction mythology that was begun way back in 1938.

Whatever the "continuity" is at any particular moment is just window dressing, the really important thing is whether or not the characters we're reading about feel like themselves and are being given stories worthy of them.

Unfortunately, for me, that has not been the case with most of DC's output for many years now.

Very well freaking said. Co-sign.

[Atlanta96]

I want great stories about the continuing adventures of the characters that have made DC great for over 75 years. The continuity quibbles only matter as much as it affects who those characters fundamentally are, including the major events and relationships that made them who they are.

I don't care if any particular comic from 2007 or 1993 or 1956 is "canon" or not. I just want the broad strokes of who that character is to be intact, so that creators and readers alike feel that these are indeed the next chapter of their adventures, rather than a completely new creation with an old name. I want to feel that there's forward momentum to this ever changing, ever evolving fiction mythology that was begun way back in 1938.

Whatever the "continuity" is at any particular moment is just window dressing, the really important thing is whether or not the characters we're reading about feel like themselves and are being given stories worthy of them.

Unfortunately, for me, that has not been the case with most of DC's output for many years now.

I kind of prefer for as many old stories to be in continuity as possible. At least, the good ones. I wouldn't mind if these reboots wiped out awful stories like Cry for Justice or Amazons Attack, allowing for less time to have passed in the DCU. But if I'm going to read stuff like New Teen Titans, Birds of Prey, or 52, I'd really like it to be in continuity with the current DCU. Otherwise they feel kind of irrelevant, the fact that they have no place in the current DCU makes them feel like they don't matter as much as new stories.

Also, the inclusion of these stories in current continuity makes for a better, richer universe overall. Most of us can agree that the lack of legacy and character relationships in the New 52 was a big problem. Reinstating the most popular stories and events of the old DCU fixes this, and gives the old stuff relevance, as opposed to feeling like elseworlds tales.

[Prisoner 6655321]

I don't know that I've read the specific complaints you are referring to, but the only critiques of Rebirth that I could see are one of two things:

1. It doesn't change enough stuff.
2. It is dropping all of the "offbeat/experimental" stuff and focusing on the more popular, unfortunately generally less diverse, characters.

For #1, even if we take the hype at face value, DC never said "oh my god we completely screwed up" - they just said they realized something was missing. So they are putting that something back in, not doing a complete overhaul.

For #2, I think it's an unfortunate circumstance of the market nowadays. Hopefully DC will be able to get their sales back up to the point where they can start experimenting again.

This thread was largely motivated by things I saw on the Superman boards.

Well, I feel like the question is a little slanted, since we've had five years to see how the 52 would play out, and nothing but some solicits for Rebirth.

From what little we know, it seems like Rebirth is doing what Flashpoint should have done; update and streamline the characters and histories without tossing the baby out with the bath water. I think its great that Ollie Queen is getting his goatee back, and if Percy is to be believed, his political leanings as well. I like the sound of what Rucka has planned for Wonder Woman, even if it likely means losing the cool stuff Azzarello did with the gods. Stuff like that is most welcome. Flashpoint tried too hard to be ALL NEW ALL NOW ALL KEWL and I felt like DC was embarrassed by their history and tried too hard to make everything movie-ready, if movies were still set in the 90's with an eye towards being "extreme" (which is something I hate to say because of how cheap those words are now, but stuff like Joker's face, the Catwoman-Batman sex scene, and the Starfire problems with the first issue of Outlaws forces me to say it)

I think Rebirth is sorely lacking in variety. It looks like our options are going to be: straight up superhero stuff, slightly grim superhero stuff set in Gotham, and anti-heroes. After the last several years where things like OMAC, Prez, Dial H, The Movement, Bizarro, and Sandman Overture were always going on, Rebirth feels awfully bland. I understand why DC is doing it, but still.

And really, I dont think we can even really compare them. Flashpoint was a reboot, regardless of what DC said at the time. Rebirth doesnt seem to be, its just a re-branding akin to what Marvel has been doing since 2012; shuffling creative teams and titles, cutting off the fat, with a couple costume changes thrown in for good measure.

The only exception here is Superman. Flashpoint rebooted Superman and gave us something amazing with Grant Morrison, the kind of fresh start the character desperately needed. Rebirth is destroying what little headway the Super-franchise has been able to build up, giving up on its potential, and seems to be going against the grain of most of the other Rebirth stuff as well. Which, if you're not a Superman fan, isnt a big loss. If you are a Superman fan, its a huge step backwards and actually fairly insulting.

While I agree with most of your stuff. I disagree on the Superman point, I know I'm not alone in this but I also know I'm not in a particular majority when it comes to my specific Super-tastes. While I enjoyed Morrison's run more than most things and post-52 have brought some changes I kinda dig... I think in general Superman, especially in regard to his supporting cast and related concepts (like CADMUS, Newsboy Legion, et al.) post-Flashpoint has hindered Superman more than helped.

[Drz]

And when I saw it, I realized that it wasn't that long ago they were promoting New52, and then DCYou.
It's like the train just can't seem to get out of the station.

Like Dan Didio said, they want the biggest comic audience out there, not the smallest audience with the highest price tags.

[finfan]

Like Dan Didio said, they want the biggest comic audience out there, not the smallest audience with the highest price tags.

The problem is that this is a band-aid fix! It will bring in the hoards for the first 6 months and then start to plummet again.

[GlennSimpson]

The problem is that this is a band-aid fix! It will bring in the hoards for the first 6 months and then start to plummet again.

There are no long-term fixes at this point. It's a sinking ship.

If something turns it around, it's going to be a combination of factors outside of DC's control.

[AlexanderLuthor]

I'll preface by saying this is all IMHO -

Flashpoint was necessary because the line had become stale. There were pockets of good stuff like Morrison's Batman and Johns' Green Lantern, but there was a lot more crap and I think many characters had reached there narrative conclusion. Something fresh needed to be done. Rebirth is being done because in many ways I think DC lost sight of what's important. Ultimately, selling a lot of comic books is important and to do that you have to (1) know your audience, (2) have good writers and (3) play to your strengths.

Taking them in reverse order: DCs main strengths are its iconic characters and its history. The company is in the enviable position, even though it is #2 in the industry, of having the more iconic characters. Those have to be focused on. Yes, more Batman, Superman, WW, GL, Flash and JL. That doesn't mean you can't have diversity later, but you need a spine. As for legacy, that has been hashed over before and DC has recognized the problem. As for writers: King, Snyder, Seeley, Johns, Rucka, Williamson, Priest and if rumors are true Hickman would likely be the best writing crew DC has ever assembled. As for audience - there is a big difference between who actually buys comic books and those who just complain about them professionally. Listening to the complainers got us DCYou, but those people don't show up to buy the books. Most people just want good superhero stories.

I'm encouraged because I believe out of necessity and getting their ass kicked DC has identified the problems and Rebirth is trying to address them