Superman And The Damage Done

[JBatmanFan05]

I will be even more sacrilegious. I like MAN OF STEEL and BATMAN V SUPERMAN more than SUPERMAN I and II, and Henry Cavill is the greatest live action Superman yet.

Now I know why it says "Phantom Zone Escapee."

[Ascended]

Hey man, once you take the rose tinted nostalgia goggles off, the old Donner films aren't that amazing. Still good, dont get me wrong, but they're not as great as we like to remember them being. I mean, come on, the whole "fly backwards around earth to change time" thing would destroy every review for a movie if they tried it today, and it was a stupid idea back then too. That's way worse than Zod's suicide by Super-cop.

And anyone who likes a little more Golden Age edge in their Superman, as I do, is likely to prefer Cavill's Superman to Reeves. Dont get me wrong, I love Reeves and those old films. I have an autographed photo of Reeves in the Superman suit, I have donated to his stem-cell charity, have the autobiography, all that. Big fan. But there's nothing wrong with Cavill's Superman.

I wouldnt go so far as to say BvS is better than either Donner film though.

[JBatmanFan05]

I mean, come on, the whole "fly backwards around earth to change time" thing would destroy every review for a movie if they tried it today, and it was a stupid idea back then too.

That was Silver Age Superman right there. You're looking at it from the totally wrong perspective. Really. Donner was basically doing that Superman. That's why that fly backwards scene was so perfect....that was so pulp sci-fi & late 40s 50s 60s etc Superman. Like all the old movies and magazine stories that defied space physics and knowledge.

[Ascended]

Oh, I know where he got the idea from. It just doesnt work for me, and it didnt back in the mid 80's when I first saw it as a kid either.

For one thing, those old films where a rocket could be fired into the moon with the windows down, and the inhabitants would wander about in their suits and top hats? That wasnt ignoring physics and science, that was being ignorant of physics and science.

By the time of the Superman movie, we knew better than to think you could rewind time by flying really fast. Donner may have been going for the quaint charm of the Silver Age but to me it just ended up looking like a lazy way to reconcile the plot within the film's running time. Like a kid writing a report who hits the page requirement and drops everything with "And then they died. The end."

But there's no need to defend the movie man. I love those movies. I just enjoy MoS more, for a number of reasons, though I disagree with some of Snyder's choices as well.

[Lairston]

There were things in the Donner films that were wtf moments for me too. The turning back time was one of them. The throwing the plastic shield was another. and then when he pointed and rebuilt a wall... Just weird. Like you couldn't use one of his actual powers like superfast flight to do it?

MOS felt like I was watching a mad Superman all the time. Is this Superman capable of smiling?

If I had all those powers I'd have fun. does MOS Superman have fun? Like the preview in Superman 51 with Lana. That's Superman.

Yeah I said something nice about nu52. :P

[Hilden B. Lade]

Superman seemed to be having a lot of fun when he was learning how to fly in MoS, he even laughed.

[Agent Z]

That was Silver Age Superman right there. You're looking at it from the totally wrong perspective. Really. Donner was basically doing that Superman. That's why that fly backwards scene was so perfect....that was so pulp sci-fi & late 40s 50s 60s etc Superman. Like all the old movies and magazine stories that defied space physics and knowledge.

Well this modern Superman isn't Silver Age Superman.

[Agent Z]

There were things in the Donner films that were wtf moments for me too. The turning back time was one of them. The throwing the plastic shield was another. and then when he pointed and rebuilt a wall... Just weird. Like you couldn't use one of his actual powers like superfast flight to do it?

MOS felt like I was watching a mad Superman all the time. Is this Superman capable of smiling?

If I had all those powers I'd have fun. does MOS Superman have fun? Like the preview in Superman 51 with Lana. That's Superman.

Yeah I said something nice about nu52. :P

Yeah, he is. ANd he smiles a lot too. He just has quite a bit to not smile about as well.

Fancy that. Being Superman isn't all that easy after all.

[Lairston]

Superman seemed to be having a lot of fun when he was learning how to fly in MoS, he even laughed.

Yeah, he is. ANd he smiles a lot too. He just has quite a bit to not smile about as well.

Fancy that. Being Superman isn't all that easy after all.

Oh okay. I just don't remember it and it has been a while since I saw it. I remembered he seemed to be scowling all the time. Maybe all the trailers on tv of BvS(which I haven't seen) advertising the movie are influencing my memory.

[Jon Clark]

Hey man, once you take the rose tinted nostalgia goggles off, the old Donner films aren't that amazing. Still good, dont get me wrong, but they're not as great as we like to remember them being. I mean, come on, the whole "fly backwards around earth to change time" thing would destroy every review for a movie if they tried it today, and it was a stupid idea back then too. That's way worse than Zod's suicide by Super-cop.

I have problems with Donner as well- mostly Hackman's campy Lex. And the time-travel worked for me as a Superman power (since he did it regularly in the comic), the mechanics were lousy. I was able to get past the bad visual since I knew it was just that- The earth wasn't spinning backwards, we were seeing things from Superman's perspective as he moved through time in reverse. I just became confused as to what the do-over accomplished- were there two Supermen accomplishing the rescues giving him time to save Lois? did he let other people die to make time for that Lois' save? did time just unfold differently the second time around?

But at the end of the day Donner's main character was a Superman I recognized and could cheer for. Snyder's wasn't. It felt like Morrison's Earth-2 logic. In the Donner-verse the good guy got clear wins, while in the Snyder-verse the heroes aren't universally loved and there is a cost to their wins.

[Buried Alien]

I have problems with Donner as well- mostly Hackman's campy Lex. And the time-travel worked for me as a Superman power (since he did it regularly in the comic), the mechanics were lousy. I was able to get past the bad visual since I knew it was just that- The earth wasn't spinning backwards, we were seeing things from Superman's perspective as he moved through time in reverse. I just became confused as to what the do-over accomplished- were there two Supermen accomplishing the rescues giving him time to save Lois? did he let other people die to make time for that Lois' save? did time just unfold differently the second time around?

The current CW FLASH TV series plays with similar problems as well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[manofsteel1979]

Hey man, once you take the rose tinted nostalgia goggles off, the old Donner films aren't that amazing. Still good, dont get me wrong, but they're not as great as we like to remember them being. I mean, come on, the whole "fly backwards around earth to change time" thing would destroy every review for a movie if they tried it today, and it was a stupid idea back then too. That's way worse than Zod's suicide by Super-cop.

And anyone who likes a little more Golden Age edge in their Superman, as I do, is likely to prefer Cavill's Superman to Reeves. Dont get me wrong, I love Reeves and those old films. I have an autographed photo of Reeves in the Superman suit, I have donated to his stem-cell charity, have the autobiography, all that. Big fan. But there's nothing wrong with Cavill's Superman.

I wouldnt go so far as to say BvS is better than either Donner film though.

On it's own? Perhaps not but I see MOS and BvS as one long story, similar to SUPERMAN I & II and to me it just works better as an arc. SUPERMAN I is a better movie than MOS or BvS, However I like the story told better across the two films. Which is sort of unfair to Donner as both versions of SUPERMAN II are bastardized (the Lester cut is nearly unwatchable to me now, and while the Donner Cut is superior in nearly every way, the repeat of the turn back time ending just doesn't work) but it is what it is.

I also love Reeve (not REEVES...a pet peave of mine, sorry Ascended!) and every time I see him as Supes I smile,but Cavill's Superman in terms of stature and depth is very close to how I see Superman in my head that I just feel he is the best one so far,but of course that is subjective.

[Ascended]

I also love Reeve (not REEVES...a pet peave of mine, sorry Ascended!) and every time I see him as Supes I smile,but Cavill's Superman in terms of stature and depth is very close to how I see Superman in my head that I just feel he is the best one so far,but of course that is subjective.

Ah, dammit, you're right! I was thinking of George, not Chris. If I have to, I'll turn in my Super-fan card and make amends.

But I agree, as charming and fun as Reeve (there, corrected! You happy now?) was, Cavill brings a depth to him that I appreciate. And I think there's a nuance to him that a lot of people miss. He's a quiet guy, and his acting goes under the wave in a way that Reeve typically doesnt, that appeals to me.

My Superman is a relatively happy, fairly well adjusted guy. But he shoulders a burden that would make any world leader crumble, and a crown should never sit easily on his head. And while he does not think of himself as such and makes no pretensions to such a role, Superman *is* a king of sorts. There's a line from a series of novels called the Wheel of Time that goes "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain" and I feel like that applies to Clark. He does what needs to be done because someone has to do it, and most of the time he's the only one who can. That responsibility should not sit comfortably with anyone, even a guy as extraordinary and generally happy as Clark. And for me, Cavill carries that combination of burdensome duty and boundless joy.

But this is just me. I dont mean to imply that others should feel the same way or that my opinions are superior to someone else's. I think, really, as far as live action goes we should consider ourselves lucky; many people have played this role and all of them did a decent-to-incredible job. Even Dean Cain and Tom Welling are leaps and bounds better than many of the actors to play Batman, for example.

[Ascended]

In the Donner-verse the good guy got clear wins, while in the Snyder-verse the heroes aren't universally loved and there is a cost to their wins.

That's one of the things I like about the Snyder films. There's a price to pay. It makes the heroism more potent. Its easy to be the hero when the wins are fairly easy and victory comes with universal adoration. Doing the right thing when you're still going to be called into question for it, doubted, feared, and hated makes that true heroism and not just glory chasing.

Not that Im accusing Reeve's Superman of being nothing but a glory hound, but Cavill's Superman still doing the right thing in the face of all the adversity he faces says a lot more about the character's inner strength to me.

[Idiscyple]

About fixing Superman in the movies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jObt...ion_3125415791