New 52 Superman/Ben Reilly/OMD - Replacing the Replacements

[Vworp Vworp]

So, I'm playing a bit of catch up here. Other than knowing a little about Rebirth and that original Supes (and Lois) were alive in the New 52, I've only just discovered that New 52 Superman is seemingly on his way out. I was curious what the reaction was to this turn of events might be, hence my visiting this board. Whilst I have little interest in New 52 Superman myself and I didn't read a whole lot of original Superman pre-Flashpoint either, it is interesting to see parallels here with a character with whom I was very invested.

Twenty('ish) years ago, Spider-Man went through a change not unlike that which befell many characters in the DCU after Flashpoint. He was effectively replaced by himself. Yes, the context was very different but the general concept was not a million miles away, in that it was a character being replaced by a different version of the same character. And then, a year or so later, the original came back and Ben Reilly was gone. Now back then, even before the wide proliferation message boards and social media, I was well aware that I was very much in the minority in wanting Ben to remain and being disappointed by the return of the 'One True' Spider-Man.

In this case though, as some threads on this board attest to, it's clear that there are a significant number of people who don't want to see the replacement Superman get... replaced. I haven't looked around the board enough to ascertain the majority opinion, but support of New 52 Superman certainly seems to be high. Yes, there are some differences, not least of which being that the original Superman has had one pretty significant change in his absence. Perhaps if Mary Jane hadn't lost the baby, fans would have been less welcoming to a returning Daddy-Pete way back in '96.

And of course, the Clone Saga wasn't the only time that Peter replaced Peter. Indeed, when Pete was effectively Flashpointed a second time (in One More Day) it was in a way that was much more prescient of what would happen to Clark some years later (right down to the erased marriage!). Once again, Peter had been replaced by himself. But this time, the new Peter felt much more like a different/alternate version to me than Ben ever had done and for that reason, I dropped the book and haven't returned since. My time with Spidey was essentially book-ended by the two times that Peter Parker was replaced by a Peter who both was and wasn't Peter Parker!

As a result of all of this, I've been on both sides of the 'replacement' fence. I was pro-Ben at the time because he was basically my Spider-man (my first Spidey comic was Sensational #0). However, in the years that followed I came to accept Pete as the real deal... So much so that when he was replaced, I found myself on the opposing side of the argument and not being able to accept the new timey-wimey/alternate BND Peter.

With all that in mind, I'm wondering where people here stand on the subject of replacements and originals and alternates and how it relates to Clark. Who's the real deal for you? And why? Or is there room for both?

[Kuwagaton]

I really enjoy the idea of dusting off a legend by way of a radical development that installs a tried and true status quo with tons of tweaks. Bringing back an older version has never been done. But nostalgia isn't enough, the character has now evolved into a new role with a clean slate at the same time.

My fondness for this idea goes back to picking up Spider-Man in 1993 and finding it nearly unreadable. I welcomed Ben with open arms. It was disappointing to see that it went back to how it was, with mediocre stories, "because. "

Although, my only loyalty is to good stories. If they restored Peter and set his books on fire, I would have forgotten all about Ben.

[BeefBourguignon]

Mine is Post-Crisis era Superman. I love how Dan Jurgens (and Roger Stern and Jerry Ordway) writes him. I like taking him and Lois of that era and giving them a child and putting them in modern day. I find the idea of Jon being the legacy of a dead world he never knew (just like his dad) to be fitting. I like taking this Superman and throwing him into a more cynical world and having him stay true to his personality and values. I prefer Clark over Kal-El. I also love Post-Crisis Lois. She is more inspiring and heroic than Wonder Woman to me. Clark & Lois are the true power couple.

I don't think New52 Superman is appealing. He never seemed like Superman to me at all. More a generic knock-off from an early 90s Image comic meets something from a high school drama.

[vasir12]

I would be fine either way. There are ups and downs to both characters to me. In a perfect world, I'd like for both of them to be around. One of them don't even HAVE to change their name. It's not unheard of to have two heroes sharing aliases... like Spider-man.

[Truman Burbank]

I think the perception against replacing New 52 Superman gets skewed because the biggest opponents of the switch dominate a lot of threads, and their posts are often lengthy. Many who have given a neutral or positive comment towards the switch have made one or two short posts about it, not the walls of text some of the opponents have. Just an observation.

Personally, I grew up with Post-Crisis Superman. Based on what I've seen so far, Dan Jurgens is writing more of an early-'90s Triangle Era version of the character, which is what he should be doing. That's the version of the Post-Crisis character that really worked.

I have disagreed with many of the steps DC has taken with the New 52 version of Superman: the way his stories have been told, the content of some of those stories, the lack of world-building and supporting cast development, some aspects of his characterization, etc. I am not unsympathetic to why DC revamped the character; the 2000s were just plain bad, and something needed to be done. But DC hasn't done the work to make this character what it should be.

I have no doubt that at some point, the New 52 version of Superman will return. What I hope is that while he is not in active use, DC takes the opportunity to look at what wasn't working or properly developed and find ways to fix it.

[Kuwagaton]

Well put. I am excited for this new story, but I don't mind getting the Zero version back. I like the other Superman coming back with Jurgens because it implies that world building and consistency we used to have while giving a ton of new things.

Spider-Man worked a little differently because Peter being the clone would remove twenty years of stories in a way that some fans really hate. I personally saw it as the adventures of a different Spider-Man who got his happy ending, and made peace with it.

[MarvelMaster616]

I don't think it's fair to compare the current situation with Superman to the Clone Saga. In fact, I don't think it's fair to compare anything to the Clone Saga because that's one event that even Marvel admits it screwed up badly. The situation isn't quite that messy with Superman right now. The Superman and Lois aren't clones or anything. They're from an alternate universe. And it's not like they're the first from an alternate universe to visit. Huntress visited from Earth 2 at one point. Now ignoring how confusing AUs can be, I'd still say they're less confusing than clones.

Even if it's less confusing, I get the sense that DC wants to have their cake and eat it too with Superman. They know there are still fans of a married, family-oriented Superman. They also know there are fans of an unmarried Superman dating Wonder Woman. They don't want to favor one over the other so they're trying to have it both ways with an AU. And I think that's misguided, but understandable. I think they want Wonder Woman single for when her movie comes out next year. I also think they want Superman to be more in line with his classic post-Crisis version rather than trying to modernize him, which is more in line with the movie Superman anyways. I think in the short-term, it'll boost the series. But in the long term, as we saw with the Clone Saga, it'll collapse under its own weight. DC (and Marvel for that matter) does a horrible job with married characters or families. They either undermine them completely or make them boring. So I'm really not interested in this version of Superman being shoved into a role. I prefer to just wait for the New 52 Superman to return.

[adrikito]

Wow .. that happened with Spiderman? I no buy Marvel, I don´t know, but I play Spiderman and see in TV.. I apreciate the character.... But by a character I not want to spend marvel and lost more money..

I am DC FAN FOREVER.. MARVEL have used Deadpool to mock DC I hate the character.. and thishave a comic with Spiderman, I don´t like this.


Room for two? that's what we had in the last months... They could focus its future otherwise.

Now with the death of a superman(after horrible months with SM, outside of JL) THIS.. I feel like hating the other.. All this is your fault DC not the character.

If Supergirl/Superwoman/New Superman(Chinese guy) had put forward this had happened.. You know 100% that Superman would return.. Now they promote he(in all SM, even Justice League) and his son, even lois is dying, WHY? Because she have replace?.. for now I do not like this nothing..

This decision leaves only doubts .. he will have enough success in rebirth? They will decide to stay like Superman and old fans were launched to buy to make this happen? MONEY IS MONEY.

I hope happens as Spiderman.. with people from another universe can not be superman back before, nor have the same friends

[Kuwagaton]

I don't think it's fair to compare the current situation with Superman to the Clone Saga. In fact, I don't think it's fair to compare anything to the Clone Saga because that's one event that even Marvel admits it screwed up badly. The situation isn't quite that messy with Superman right now. The Superman and Lois aren't clones or anything. They're from an alternate universe. And it's not like they're the first from an alternate universe to visit. Huntress visited from Earth 2 at one point. Now ignoring how confusing AUs can be, I'd still say they're less confusing than clones.

Even if it's less confusing, I get the sense that DC wants to have their cake and eat it too with Superman. They know there are still fans of a married, family-oriented Superman. They also know there are fans of an unmarried Superman dating Wonder Woman. They don't want to favor one over the other so they're trying to have it both ways with an AU. And I think that's misguided, but understandable. I think they want Wonder Woman single for when her movie comes out next year. I also think they want Superman to be more in line with his classic post-Crisis version rather than trying to modernize him, which is more in line with the movie Superman anyways. I think in the short-term, it'll boost the series. But in the long term, as we saw with the Clone Saga, it'll collapse under its own weight. DC (and Marvel for that matter) does a horrible job with married characters or families. They either undermine them completely or make them boring. So I'm really not interested in this version of Superman being shoved into a role. I prefer to just wait for the New 52 Superman to return.

I'm curious to know who made the concession and when, but I don't see how that makes the comparison unfair. You just made a comparison yourself, in bold. Certainly, there are a lot of story details that are completely different. But the bare concept is the same (replacement via alt. restore point) and has people feeling many of the same ways.

You say it's not as messy, but imagine things will get rough (if DC is in a sales pinch and they get desperate, you can bet the stories will get desperate) as time goes by. I can see that. But I have to refute the idea that they're avoiding making the new Superman modern, because making him a father is modernizing him.

[L.R Johansson]

No, no... neither Superdad nor Nuperman is the "real" Superman to me... hence the question is somewhat irrelevant.

Because, THIS is Superman!

And the classic solution, wherein they have old-version Superman on another, parallel Earth is the solution which I prefer to the problem. This obviously includes a changing of the entire mainstream Universe as well.