Is there a way to make everyone happy?

[superduperman]

With "old" Superman taking over the Super-books for a while (hopefully not forever) and "new" Superman being MIA for a while (again, hopefully not forever) is there a way to make all fans happy? Other than everyone agreeing with me about everything, I mean!

What would be your suggestions for reconciling the differences between fans of "new" and "old" Superman?

[Kuwagaton]

No, there is not and probably will never be, until we all sit down and agree to be the same person.

Always go for the fences and I will respect it, whether or not it's my thing.

[friendly-fire-press]

I doubt it. Maybe if the Pre N52 universe becomes Earth 2 and gets it's own line of comics, while N52 remains the main conintuity.

Who knows? Maybe DC doesn't want to make everyone happy. If there's more fan division/ rage then there's likely to be more interent activity?

[superduperman]

Maybe if the Pre N52 universe becomes Earth 2 and gets it's own line of comics, while N52 remains the main conintuity.

That's not a bad suggestion, actually. It would be the perfect test to see which world fans like more.

[DieHard200904]

That's not a bad suggestion, actually. It would be the perfect test to see which world fans like more.

That's a lot like Ultimate and Main Marvel, but hopefully, I don't believe in the Ultimate Marvel curse.

[SuperCrab]

I don't even think the scenario as described above, with a Superman title focusing on new52 Superman in the mainstream DC universe, and an Action Comics title featuring the pre-Flashpoint Superman, returning to a Metropolis in his original universe that presumed him dead the last few years, just as he presumed that that universe was dead, would need to be a trial or a test run.

What's wrong with having two Supermen, each in their own universe? It'd certainly be a way of diversifying the Superman line by differentiating the two main books and giving people separate reasons to buy each of them, instead of them essentially both being the same thing with different individual stories.

I also think, though there might be a friendly rivalry among fans about which Superman is better, the way people argue about Superman and Batman in general, that there would actually be a broad interest in both titles. If their Superman hadn't been eliminated at the start of the new52, and it was just two separate Superman books in two separate universes, the pre-Flashpoint fans might have gone easier on the new52 Superman and come to enjoy him as an alternative take on the Superman mythos. That he was *replacing* their guy is what got some of them really upset. Similarly, now we have the pre-Flashpoint Superman *replacing* the new52 Superman, which is getting some of us newer fans (Although I hesitate to categorize myself that way, I remember watching Lois and Clark on TV in the 90s and stuff, I'm just newer to really following comics) upset that our Superman is gone.

If they'd just told me pre-Flashpoint Superman is taking over Action Comics and new52 Superman gets the Superman title and Justice League books and stuff, I'd probably have subscribed to all of them. As things stand, I may drop all of my subs after Rebirth (Already dropped the two with retro Supermen- Lois and Clark, and The Coming of the Supermen).

DC Comics has twice with their poor treatment of a version of the Superman character created a contentious situation that's alienated some fans. I'll bet both books would sell better if they existed side by side. Every once in a while, there could be a cross-dimensional Super team up. People could buy the "other" Superman's book, whomever the "other" Superman is for them, without feeling resentful that he'd displaced their guy, and just think of it as a bonus added, the way they'd buy a Batman book or a Green Lantern book or whatever.

Oh, and added bonus, those crossovers everyone thinks are too frequent and/or require people to buy two man side books they don't want? There might be less of them if the two Superman exist in two different continuities, leaving more space for each Superman to be developed in their own books with their own stories.

I think editorial probably feels that having two Supermen in two different universes would create confusion, and maybe it did in the 80s when they had a similar scenario pre-Crisis (When what we now talk about as the pre-Flashpoint Superman was the younger guy stealing the original Superman's spotlight ). However, one thing they may not be taking into account on that is that their audience is no longer primarily children. It's adult comic book nerds, and maybe some teenagers. You know what adult comic book nerds are really good at? Keeping track of continuity and alternate versions. I mean, seriously, the audience DC has and wants more of is exactly the audience most likely to understand two separate Supermen in two separate universes in their own books almost instantaneously and not even need much of an explanation, as long as it's not done in an overtly confusing way. One Superman and one universe per series. There.

They could even encourage the pre-Flashpoint Action Comics to go with retro artistic work to some degree (Not necessarily like Golden Age stuff, just 80s and 90s and 00s stuff- post-crisis), and the new52 Superman title to go with cutting edge stuff. The whole look and feel of each series could match the era each Superman started in. Differentiate the costumes more. You could have new52 Clark really go after Diana. You could put pre-Flashpoint Kent back in the fedora and trunks and reporting for a paper newspaper (I don't know if you'd actually change the time period, you might just say it's happening "currently" and since it's another universe, it's a mix of classic stuff and modern stuff, like the TV show Gotham, which features classic cars on the road, flip phones instead of smart phones, and yet has some very modern stuff as well, where it's really in it's own universe).

I'm sure there'd be a snarky editorial or two about audience confusion from clipbait websites and media that doesn't really get comic books or comic book fans, or people who do get comic books and comic book fans, but are just trying to stir the pot, saying the whole situation that would exist with two Supermen in two different comics and two different universes was needlessly confusing and a sign of editorial dissarary, but that wouldn't make it *true*, and I don't think much of the core fan base and the people you realistically might reach would share that impression.

The truth is, there are three markets: a market for everything Superman, a market for a retro Superman, and a market for a modern edgier Superman. You own a comic book publishing house that used to publish almost 100 monthly titles, down to 52 in 2011, and 30-40 post-Rebirth (Although with some shipping twice a month, it's really going to be fairly close to 52 again, I'd think, if we count issues per month). Superman is probably your first or second best known character. It's not a grave hardship to do one book to make one audience happy and a second book to make another audience happy- with that third audience that likes both cross-buying both titles (Also, people from each camp becoming part of the third camp just because, hey, their Superman is no longer threatened, so why not give the other one a try?). Each book would probably sell better individually than giving both of the major Superman titles to one version of Superman.

I mean, when there were four Supermen after the Death of Superman storyline from in the 90s, people didn't like that, but it was because it was essentially four versions of Superman that nobody wanted, and they were all in the same universe with questionable claims on being that universe's Superman. Same with Superman Red and Superman Blue. This would be different, because it's two Supermen who each have large constituencies, each in their own universe, where they were Clark Kent and are definitely their universe's Superman.

[DieHard200904]

I don't even think the scenario as described above, with a Superman title focusing on new52 Superman in the mainstream DC universe, and an Action Comics title featuring the pre-Flashpoint Superman, returning to a Metropolis in his original universe that presumed him dead the last few years, just as he presumed that that universe was dead, would need to be a trial or a test run.

What's wrong with having two Supermen, each in their own universe? It'd certainly be a way of diversifying the Superman line by differentiating the two main books and giving people separate reasons to buy each of them, instead of them essentially both being the same thing with different individual stories.

I also think, though there might be a friendly rivalry among fans about which Superman is better, the way people argue about Superman and Batman in general, that there would actually be a broad interest in both titles. If their Superman hadn't been eliminated at the start of the new52, and it was just two separate Superman books in two separate universes, the pre-Flashpoint fans might have gone easier on the new52 Superman and come to enjoy him as an alternative take on the Superman mythos. That he was *replacing* their guy is what got some of them really upset. Similarly, now we have the pre-Flashpoint Superman *replacing* the new52 Superman, which is getting some of us newer fans (Although I hesitate to categorize myself that way, I remember watching Lois and Clark on TV in the 90s and stuff, I'm just newer to really following comics) upset that our Superman is gone.

If they'd just told me pre-Flashpoint Superman is taking over Action Comics and new52 Superman gets the Superman title and Justice League books and stuff, I'd probably have subscribed to all of them. As things stand, I may drop all of my subs after Rebirth (Already dropped the two with retro Supermen- Lois and Clark, and The Coming of the Supermen).

DC Comics has twice with their poor treatment of a version of the Superman character created a contentious situation that's alienated some fans. I'll bet both books would sell better if they existed side by side. Every once in a while, there could be a cross-dimensional Super team up. People could buy the "other" Superman's book, whomever the "other" Superman is for them, without feeling resentful that he'd displaced their guy, and just think of it as a bonus added, the way they'd buy a Batman book or a Green Lantern book or whatever.

Oh, and added bonus, those crossovers everyone thinks are too frequent and/or require people to buy two man side books they don't want? There might be less of them if the two Superman exist in two different continuities, leaving more space for each Superman to be developed in their own books with their own stories.

I think editorial probably feels that having two Supermen in two different universes would create confusion, and maybe it did in the 80s when they had a similar scenario pre-Crisis (When what we now talk about as the pre-Flashpoint Superman was the younger guy stealing the original Superman's spotlight ). However, one thing they may not be taking into account on that is that their audience is no longer primarily children. It's adult comic book nerds, and maybe some teenagers. You know what adult comic book nerds are really good at? Keeping track of continuity and alternate versions. I mean, seriously, the audience DC has and wants more of is exactly the audience most likely to understand two separate Supermen in two separate universes in their own books almost instantaneously and not even need much of an explanation, as long as it's not done in an overtly confusing way. One Superman and one universe per series. There.

They could even encourage the pre-Flashpoint Action Comics to go with retro artistic work to some degree (Not necessarily like Golden Age stuff, just 80s and 90s and 00s stuff- post-crisis), and the new52 Superman title to go with cutting edge stuff. The whole look and feel of each series could match the era each Superman started in. Differentiate the costumes more. You could have new52 Clark really go after Diana. You could put pre-Flashpoint Kent back in the fedora and trunks and reporting for a paper newspaper (I don't know if you'd actually change the time period, you might just say it's happening "currently" and since it's another universe, it's a mix of classic stuff and modern stuff, like the TV show Gotham, which features classic cars on the road, flip phones instead of smart phones, and yet has some very modern stuff as well, where it's really in it's own universe).

I'm sure there'd be a snarky editorial or two about audience confusion from clipbait websites and media that doesn't really get comic books or comic book fans, or people who do get comic books and comic book fans, but are just trying to stir the pot, saying the whole situation that would exist with two Supermen in two different comics and two different universes was needlessly confusing and a sign of editorial dissarary, but that wouldn't make it *true*, and I don't think much of the core fan base and the people you realistically might reach would share that impression.

The truth is, there are three markets: a market for everything Superman, a market for a retro Superman, and a market for a modern edgier Superman. You own a comic book publishing house that used to publish almost 100 monthly titles, down to 52 in 2011, and 30-40 post-Rebirth (Although with some shipping twice a month, it's really going to be fairly close to 52 again, I'd think, if we count issues per month). Superman is probably your first or second best known character. It's not a grave hardship to do one book to make one audience happy and a second book to make another audience happy- with that third audience that likes both cross-buying both titles (Also, people from each camp becoming part of the third camp just because, hey, their Superman is no longer threatened, so why not give the other one a try?). Each book would probably sell better individually than giving both of the major Superman titles to one version of Superman.

I mean, when there were four Supermen after the Death of Superman storyline from in the 90s, people didn't like that, but it was because it was essentially four versions of Superman that nobody wanted, and they were all in the same universe with questionable claims on being that universe's Superman. Same with Superman Red and Superman Blue. This would be different, because it's two Supermen who each have large constituencies, each in their own universe, where they were Clark Kent and are definitely their universe's Superman.

A lot of people fear The Ultimate Marvel curse. I don't think it's real though. I see DC as different and capable of handling two universes. It might split some sales though. But I think creating divergent universes isn't a bad idea in concept. I would argue that Ultimate Marvel failed for other reasons than being a second universe.

[dangleo61288]

That's not a bad suggestion, actually. It would be the perfect test to see which world fans like more.

It might work, but what about outside comics. Which do you do SM/LL or SM/WW?

[Adekis]

You just keep building the new Superman. Same as DC did back in the day. They didn't give up on post-Crisis Superman five years in. They built up.

I agree, in principle but since this is a thread about keeping the people who prefer the pre-Flashpoint guy happy too-

What's wrong with having two Supermen, each in their own universe? It'd certainly be a way of diversifying the Superman line by differentiating the two main books and giving people separate reasons to buy each of them, instead of them essentially both being the same thing with different individual stories.

This is one hundred percent accurate. It'd be like the Pre-Crisis divide between Earth 1 and Earth 2, but with Earth-0 as the post-Flashpoint world and I dunno, Earth-14 or something being home to the pre-Flashpoint Superman. Treat them as separate but equal universes, take steps to establish that the heroes are different enough to justify keeping them both around, and don't play too fast and loose with destroying the status quo constantly like Marvel did to the Ultimate Universe. It could really do well. This is arguably what they should have done back in 2011 anyway.

Of course, to me there is one major problem with this idea: nobody but Superman and Wonder Woman really have enough differences between their pre and post Flashpoint incarnations to be worth splitting up the universe. Animated clay vs demigoddess might be a big difference, as is young hothead Superman vs. old married Superman, but what about Hal Jordan and Bruce Wayne? They're basically about the same before and after Flashpoint. If they'd made separate universes in 2011, it'd be one thing, but at this point, you might have to mix and match a little to make enough of a difference between the worlds to justify having two of them. For example, maybe on this hypothetical Earth 14 (or whatever), the Hal Jordan Parallax that's still hanging around from Convergence (is he? I thought he was, anyway), is on a team with pre-Flashpoint Superman (married with son), Wonder Woman (made of clay), Wally West ('nuff said) and I don't know, First Wave Batman (just because he's so different from Batman-0) and an Aquaman native to that world or something.

Actually, my point when starting that paragraph was that it would just create more problems and more retcons because you can't just drop the whole Pre-Flashpoint universe into a series of books and expect it to coexist with a post-Flashpoint world that's almost exactly the same but for one or two characters, but you know what? By the end of said paragraph I'd just described a whole line of Earth-14 (or whatever) Justice League comics I would be totally willing to buy alongside the Earth-0 stuff, so either I've stumbled upon a simple, elegant solution or my high tolerance for confusing crap has gotten the better of me and I should probably stop myself. I'm betting on the latter.

It might work, but what about outside comics. Which do you do SM/LL or SM/WW?

Depends on what the creators want, same as every other adaptation. Post-Flashpoint SM and WW already broke up. Maybe Pre-Flashpoint Superman on Earth-14 (or whatever) is married to Lois but Superman-0 starts dating Maxima. Then what do the adaptations do, when Superman has simultaneously been in a couple different relationships in the last few years and also been married for the last twenty?

My guess is that as is always common in adaptations, Superman is probably going to get ship-teased with Lois a lot- but maybe not exclusively. Do you remember the Legion of Super-Heroes cartoon, where Superman and Brainiac Five had crazy amounts of romantic tension? I'd love to see that get repeated in some show or another. Actually, Superman-0 would do that in the comics if I was boss of the world, which I think we've established that I'm not.

[SuperCrab]

By the way, my early reaction to pre-Flashpoint Superman taking over Action Comics right after the WonderCon presentation wasn't that bad, because I figured it was him in his universe, with the older comic title and classic numbering, and that new52 Superman would get the Superman title and the Justice League and stuff, in stories set in his universe. Plenty of room for both Supermen.

It was when I realized they were killing off new52 Clark or otherwise exiling him and giving pre-Flashpoint Superman both books, and setting them in a universe he isn't from, that I turned on the whole thing. I also don't like that the whole thing seems to be a vehicle for launching a 10 year old Jon Kent fighting crime (I wouldn't mind if he was just casually in the books briefly as a non-superhero who happens to be Clark Kent's son)- that seems to be a real emphasis of the early Superman book with the new numbering, from the solicitation descriptions, plus I know they're trying to launch a spin-off. But that last point is not the main thing.

I also think it'd be fine to do a crossover where the two Supermen fight together in this universe, so we can see how the new52 people react to SuperDad and vice-versa, before having him move back to his own universe.

Honestly, what should happen in a scenario where a relatively unknown older Superman from a different universe steps in and replaces the current Superman, who is presumed dead, is that some of the old Superman's friends reject him. Batman is already paranoid as things stand, something like that should leave him setting up traps and contingency plans and being extremely suspicious of the replacement Superman for years. Wonder Woman, who dated replaced Superman, should also be upset at this older guy married to another woman replacing him. Heck, new52 Lois Lane shouldn't be entirely happy about this development either. Like, really, he should be rejected by the characters.

But DC probably won't write it that way, because they just want to slide this Superman in and have everyone in the book like him and talk him up so the readers just adapt, and don't feel any friction about the situation, which isn't true to the characters involved or the situation, but, hey, when has the current DC Comics regime really been concerned with that?

This decision is just weird all the way around.

[Kuwagaton]

It was when I realized they were killing off new52 Clark or otherwise exiling him and giving pre-Flashpoint Superman both books, and setting them in a universe he isn't from, that I turned on the whole thing.

Except they're apparently not?

[The Shredder]

What would be your suggestions for reconciling the differences between fans of "new" and "old" Superman?

There is no way to reconcile.

One of the major problems between the sets of fans is the distinguishable change in character due to being rebooted. Some prefer this over that, and it will always be that way when it comes to Superman. In alot of ways, I wish Byrne's MOS in 1986 never happened. Byrne claims that he was more than willing to work within the Pre-Crisis continuity when he came on board for Superman, but says that DC was adamant with going for a hard reboot. That right there caused problems. As a consequence, you had fans who preferred Pre-Crisis over Post-Crisis, and vice versa. Generations later, we now see the same thing with Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint and New52. You don't really see Batman readers nitpicking or whining about Pre-Crisis Batman over Post-Crisis Batman, or Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint Batman over New52 Batman cause the changes are alot less distinct or played up than they are with Superman.

If Byrne was actually allowed to work within the continuity and do something of a "Year One" much like Frank Miller was allowed to with Batman (IE not essentially erasing everything prior to 1986), along with not rebooting Superman from the ground up in 2011 (give him the "Year Zero" origin from Morrison and be done with it) I think the Superman comic reading fan base would be in a much healthier position than it has been for quite awhile now.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Well, the new Jurgens interview on Newsarama makes it sound more concrete that it's New 52 Superman who's the Clark Kent that's around along with the new Superman. So I assume it's Pre-Flashpoint Superman filling in a little bit to help Clark reestablish his identity. That hardly satisfies everyone - it's still a dumb event with a lack of real talent behind it - but it essentially undoes Truth (though Lois and Jimmy will presumably still know the Truth), classic Superman fans will get their boy back for awhile, and New 52 fans will have it made clear their Superman is waiting in the wings to return.

[Sacred Knight]

You just keep building the new Superman. Same as DC did back in the day. They didn't give up on post-Crisis Superman five years in. They built up. There was then and always continued to be a contingent who never warmed up to the character, but he got popular You can't make absolutely 100% of everyone happy. There's no point in even trying. But what you do is stay generally true to the basic concept of a character, doing right by them that way, then just telling the best stories you possibly can. DC has failed in both arenas as of late what with the constant half-assed crossovers for new Superman, and now this replacement debacle. If this is a temp thing an they're not giving up on the new Superman okay. I'm still not going to read about the old guy, I'll wait it out, but you don't give up on the main guy completely.

[Kuwagaton]

You just keep building the new Superman. Same as DC did back in the day. They didn't give up on post-Crisis Superman five years in. They built up.

I think it's safe to say that those five years weren't really like these five years. But roughly around that time anyway, we got the engagement and Doomsday not long after. So even then the solution was to kill and replace him. And now the B/S book, the WW relationship, Doomed, Truth... none of that stuff really moved the needle. So they're replacing him. The numbers to me haven't suggested that they're pleasing the lesser amount of potential readers by trying something new.