Is War Games Good?

[godisawesome]

Clearly, we read the various stories with Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian differently. I won't stop bringing it up, because that's the way I read those stories, but I can understand your perspective. I don't need your permission to have a different interpretation of texts.

The idea of Steph's maturity and taking being a hero seriously being a consistent factor is...really hard to determine. You are definitely right that Willingham writes Steph that way, but Dixon and Lewis before him did not, and even Gabrych, the worst offender when it came to "Steph was a screwup who deserved to die" after War Games, wrote her being serious and determined in Tec #796. That's part of the disconnect in our conversations about Steph - different writers had radically different perspectives on Steph. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that we also read the same writers differently (case in point - I read Dixon as having progressed Steph past the "young and silly" phase, and you do not).

Nope. It is factually wrong to state that the drill and knives were only "when I get back" tortures. In Robin #130, the actions cuts from Mask plugging the drill in, and cuts back with him putting away his bloody knives. Is it realistic that Steph would be able to fight him after that kind of torture? Dunno. Never tried. But it's a superhero comic where Batman can punch his way out of a straightjacket in a coffin. In Robin #131, yes, Mask does come back for more torture after masquerading as Orpheus, but 130 shows clearly that there's a lot of torture already happening.

Steph was definitely being portrayed as a more serious, if still enthusiastic, vigilante. And they'd had Batman express some approval for that by having him reveal Tim's identity to her; I forget the exact circumstances, so it might have been less clean cut then that, but he clearly trusted her with sensitive information. Plus, the idea of Batman firing her for "not following orders" fall flat when you consider how reckless and impulsive Tim's actions had been in putting on Jason's outfit in the first place. And everyone at the time seemed to be a bit confused at how the events fo her firing went down; the concensus seemed to be it was a manufactured break-up that made little sense. It was probably the result of editorial giving the writers the twin instructions of trying to squeeze some fan support out of the short tenure they wanted Steph to have as Robin, and yet still have her screw up so that it was her fault that she lost the suit.

If I can add another issue that people found hurt War Games when it came out, the way it interacted with Devin Grayson's Born Again retread in Nightwing really didn't help either story. The people who hated the stuff going on in Nightwing, like the rape of Dick Grayson and Tarantula and the dark tone of the story, approached the War Games crossover with the same bitterness, and the bad rep kind of spread out that way, making people who didn't read Nightwing irritated at the same stuff. And to those few (or quieter majority, whichever) who found the story engaging, War Games interrupted the story and killed a lot of momentum and clouded important elements; an example would be Tarantula getting a story where she was ostensibly allied with the Batfamily, when she always seemed to be more of a combination of Typhoid Mary and Elektra at their worst.

[oasis1313]

I didn't like "War Games". It had an ugly feel to it, and it didn't help for it to get mixed up in that abominable Devin Grayson stuff. It felt like somebody was trying to beat down Steph, too, and it just left a bad taste in the mouth.

[zep81]

I was mainly interested in this due to it featuring Black Mask. Are there any good/comics that also feature him as a villian?

[Carabas]

I was mainly interested in this due to it featuring Black Mask. Are there any good/comics that also feature him as a villian?

He was the Big Bad in Ed Brubaker's run on Catwoman, and he was hilarious in Under The Hood by Judd Winick.

[zep81]

He was the Big Bad in Ed Brubaker's run on Catwoman, and he was hilarious in Under The Hood by Judd Winick.

Forgot all about UTRH lol. Saw the movie but have yet to read the book.

[millernumber1]

I was mainly interested in this due to it featuring Black Mask. Are there any good/comics that also feature him as a villian?

Well, I liked the Valentine Catwoman run, trades "Keeper of the Castle" and "Inheritance."

[Darkspellmaster]

War Games was where I think that DC was testing out the grit that it wanted to bring back, and which showed up again in the nu52. It's a weird situation because on paper, in regard to the over all outline of the idea of it in some ways, it could have been a good story. A really strong story showcasing both the weaknesses of the Batfamily and their strengths. The problem was that no one had a clue what they were doing and, without proper guidance on the material, it all came crashing down causing a lot of issues. A part of me wants to go back and read the train wreck another part just wants it gone.

I heard that UTRH is great for Black Mask fans, along with Valentine's Catwoman stories, but that Jason is kind of off putting at times in UTRH and that you have to go in with a certain mental state if you're a Jason Todd fan reading this.

[SicariiDC]

There is some black mask stories leading up to knightfall and after. Looking forward to an arkham trade collecting him like Croc, riddler, etc

[Lhynn]

Steph was definitely being portrayed as a more serious, if still enthusiastic, vigilante. And they'd had Batman express some approval for that by having him reveal Tim's identity to her; I forget the exact circumstances, so it might have been less clean cut then that, but he clearly trusted her with sensitive information.

No he didnt, he wouldnt trust her with his own identity. And it wasnt clear cut, it basically left Tim furious as hes risked his life countless times to protect bruce identity.

Plus, the idea of Batman firing her for "not following orders" fall flat when you consider how reckless and impulsive Tim's actions had been in putting on Jason's outfit in the first place.

I always thought he just used the costume to avoid being identified while he was helping batman and nightwing. He had seen both were far too distracted with eachother and that put them at risk, so he went to help them.
Also he did listen to them and stayed on the car when told to do so.

And everyone at the time seemed to be a bit confused at how the events fo her firing went down; the concensus seemed to be it was a manufactured break-up that made little sense.

She didnt listen and went down to help batman against his orders, with no plan, putting them both at risk. Got herself captured and allowed and the assasin fled after her.
Lets remember theres the whole thing of him just making her robin to see if Tim would go back into the fold by making him jealous or step in out of caring for steph or whatever. Both barbara and alfred made it pretty clear that it was very transparent. And none of this was out of character.
Also everything is enginereed in comic books.

It was probably the result of editorial giving the writers the twin instructions of trying to squeeze some fan support out of the short tenure they wanted Steph to have as Robin, and yet still have her screw up so that it was her fault that she lost the suit.

Not probably, it was obvious that this is what happened.

[millernumber1]

Also everything is enginereed in comic books.

But there is good and bad engineering. You seem to find the engineering of Steph's time as Robin good, whereas I think it's incredibly bad (structurally - I always have to add the caveat that I did enjoy a lot of what Willingham, Gabrych, Horrocks, and Scott provided on a detail level - it was just plain fun seeing Steph be Robin, even if the overall story was poorly handled).

Fundamentally, you see Steph as needing to go through the development of War Games to mature, whereas I think Steph did need that same process of maturity, but that she'd already gone through it in Dixon's run. Because of the inconsistency of Steph's handling, even during Dixon's run, but also throughout the Jon Lewis and Willingham run to this point (not to mention her sporadic appearances in Batgirl and Gotham Knights), I don't think either of us will convince the other even if we reread every single issue Steph was in. The question always comes down to "which story is more normative to the character," and because canon is a completely hodge-podge thing, fans just coalesce around one story or another as it hits them.

[Lhynn]

But there is good and bad engineering. You seem to find the engineering of Steph's time as Robin good, whereas I think it's incredibly bad

I find wargames as a whole bad. But how she got the job was fairly steph like. Fit of jealousy (that weve seen before), followed by her wanting to belong to the team and be aproved of by the bat (which we saw before, and we will see in the future), followed by batman manipulating Tim (which weve seen before and that both alfred and babs confirmed), followed by her showing that shes fairly good at it (which again, weve seen before) followed by a horrible lack of judgement (that weve seen before, and we will see again), followed by batman coming to the conclusion that this isnt going to work and that Tim isnt falling for it anyway, followed by her being persistent and not giving up on trying to impress batman even if it means betraying Tim (which weve seen before, and will see again), followed by her royally screwing up (which weve seen before and will see again), followed by nonsensical writing all over the place.
All of it weve seen before in other arcs, even good arcs, and most of it we see again after war games.

Fundamentally, you see Steph as needing to go through the development of War Games to mature, whereas I think Steph did need that same process of maturity, but that she'd already gone through it in Dixon's run.

I dont think one can get rid of their demons in a single run. Neither does batman.

Because of the inconsistency of Steph's handling, even during Dixon's run, but also throughout the Jon Lewis and Willingham run to this point (not to mention her sporadic appearances in Batgirl and Gotham Knights), I don't think either of us will convince the other even if we reread every single issue Steph was in. The question always comes down to "which story is more normative to the character," and because canon is a completely hodge-podge thing, fans just coalesce around one story or another as it hits them.

Sure. I dont trust fans tho, horrible creatures that wish nothing for their favorite characters than success. I believe failure is much better at building character, especially when properly handled. Wargames tho, wargames was disgustingly bad

[millernumber1]

I dont think one can get rid of their demons in a single run. Neither does batman.

Sure. I dont trust fans tho, horrible creatures that wish nothing for their favorite characters than success. I believe failure is much better at building character, especially when properly handled. Wargames tho, wargames was disgustingly bad

You make some good points here. I agree that success for characters all the time is just creating a character who has no tension - if they always succeed, no one cares. (Which makes Batman and many of the other Robins interesting cases in point...though to be fair, Batman usually loses the overall fight at the ends of his big story arcs, which is probably another reason I don't like him much. I...sort of agree with you about Steph's tenure as Robin (though I still think Batman's one-strike policy is inconsistent with his other Robins), but I completely agree that what happens after she sets the gang war in motion is really dumb.

[Carabas]

Sure. I dont trust fans tho, horrible creatures that wish nothing for their favorite characters than success. I believe failure is much better at building character, especially when properly handled.

Except Steph was supposed to die for keeps in War Games.
Permanent death is a terrible character builder.

[Lhynn]

Permanent death is a terrible character builder.

Ive found that bad writing is far worse.

[millernumber1]

Ive found that bad writing is far worse.

I disagree. If a character is dead-dead, then there's not even a chance for good writing, or writing which improves.