Captain America vs DC's B-List Street Levelers

[HulkSmash666]

Crossovers don't count.

Hence why I said "I know the rule about crossovers".

[HulkSmash666]

If you want to invoke that sort of thing despite crossovers, one could go on to say that Prometheus never really performed at that Bat-taking level again, and ended up killed by Green Arrow.

I'm not invoking the crossover as canon and a legit feat, but as far as Cap dealing with Prommie's strobe effect, it's not that much of a stretch to think Cap can fight just as well with a disorientating strobe in his vision than without one if he's used to fighting on a World War 2 battlefield. I think artillery shells and machine guns going off around him while he's running around throwing a shield at Nazis would mean he's got some serious focus and doesn't distract so easily.

And yeah, Prommie didn't really live up to his potential after his first appearance. He did ok in the second fight with Batman, right up until Bruce cheated and downloaded Stephen Hawking's motor skills into his brain. He got a win over Shiva, too, if IIRC. Still, it was all downhill for him after that. He wound up a glorified bodyguard for Hush at one stage, didn't he? Or was that the imposter?

[Pendaran]

I'm not invoking the crossover as canon and a legit feat, but as far as Cap dealing with Prommie's strobe effect, it's not that much of a stretch to think Cap can fight just as well with a disorientating strobe in his vision than without one if he's used to fighting on a World War 2 battlefield. I think artillery shells and machine guns going off around him while he's running around throwing a shield at Nazis would mean he's got some serious focus and doesn't distract so easily.

Batman's used to fighting in the middle of alien invasions, buildings burning and exploding around him, and focusing through the impalement and other savagings of his own body. Strobes Prometheus used still apparently messed with him.

[HulkSmash666]

Batman's used to fighting in the middle of alien invasions, buildings burning and exploding around him, and focusing through the impalement and other savagings of his own body. Strobes Prometheus used still apparently messed with him.

So was it the strobe effect or the 30 of the world's greatest martial artists directly downloaded into Prommie's brain that did the trick on Batman? Which would you say hampered Bats more?

I'm thinking getting beaten half to death by a guy with the skills of the 30 best fighters on the planet would have been sufficient. The strobe effect was just overkill. Prommie didn't look like he'd even taken a hit, so I'm willing to acknowledge the strobe lights had SOME effect on Bats' ability to land a hit. Their second fight? IIRC there was no strobe effect, and Bats managed to land a couple of hits before cheating.

So based on that, and that Bats is perhaps just as focused a fighter as Cap is, given they've both had years of fighting on numerous different battlefields, that Cap COULD be effected by Prommie's strobe. But that doesn't necessarily mean Cap loses to Prommie. Prommie has 30 of the DC Earth's best fighters on his disc. Not Marvel's. So he doesn't have Cap's fighting style. Nor does he have Cap's physicality or shield.

Cap is one of Marvel Earth's best fighters. Only DD, Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Elektra and Taskmaster really surpass him in skill, while guys like Logan, T'challa, Bucky etc are as close to his equals as one could get. Cap's at least in the Top 10 martial artists on Marvel Earth. Others may have more esoteric or exotic martial arts skills, but what Cap has that trumps the minor difference in skill is Cap's physicality. He's THE CBPH. A lot of martial artists aren't CBPH. They are Olympic-level athletes. Pretty much any Olympic-level athlete with high end martial arts skills that are greater than Cap's skill level get beaten by Cap thanks to his superior stats.

I see this happening to Prommie. He is, at best, an Olympic-level athlete with the skills of 30 of the world's best fighters in his brain. Who on that list of 30 fighters from DC Earth are more skilled than Cap? Off the top of my head there's Cass Cain, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, David Cain and Connor Hawke. The skill gap between these fighters and Cap is not huge. I see them as being as much above Cap (in skill only) as Cap is above Black Widow. There's a gap, but not a substantial one.

What Prommie lacks is the physicality that Cap enjoys. Cap's at least twice as strong, faster, more durable, has better damage soak, better reaction time, better agility.

I think the best way I can put it is to compare Daredevil and Spider-Man (obviously this is an exaggeration, as the gap between Cap and Prommie isn't as big). DD has a shit ton more skill than Peter, but his skill won't save him from a overwhelming attack from a physically superior opponent. Spidey's speed, strength, agility and durability are just too much for DD to handle. Same with Cap and Prommie. Only the gap between them is closer.

[Pendaran]

and that Bats is perhaps just as focused a fighter as Cap is

What particularly suggests that he isn't?

What Prommie lacks is the physicality that Cap enjoys. Cap's at least twice as strong, faster, more durable, has better damage soak, better reaction time, better agility.

This becomes an interesting question. So how wildly beyond Batman in physicality do you feel Captain America is?

Cap is one of Marvel Earth's best fighters. Only DD, Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Elektra and Taskmaster really surpass him in skill, while guys like Logan, T'challa, Bucky etc are as close to his equals as one could get. Cap's at least in the Top 10 martial artists on Marvel Earth. Others may have more esoteric or exotic martial arts skills, but what Cap has that trumps the minor difference in skill is Cap's physicality. He's THE CBPH. A lot of martial artists aren't CBPH. They are Olympic-level athletes. Pretty much any Olympic-level athlete with high end martial arts skills that are greater than Cap's skill level get beaten by Cap thanks to his superior stats.

How many out of 10 do you figure Cap takes on Iron Fist? Shang Chi? Daredevil?

I see this happening to Prommie. He is, at best, an Olympic-level athlete with the skills of 30 of the world's best fighters in his brain. Who on that list of 30 fighters from DC Earth are more skilled than Cap? Off the top of my head there's Cass Cain, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, David Cain and Connor Hawke. The skill gap between these fighters and Cap is not huge. I see them as being as much above Cap (in skill only) as Cap is above Black Widow. There's a gap, but not a substantial one.

from 10, how many do you figure Cap takes on Cassandra Cain?

[Pendaran]

While I'm there actually. So, you say this:

General consensus is Cap edges Bats in H2H, but is that edge enough to take Prommie, who barely looked like he'd broken a sweat when he dismantled Bats in their first fight?

If you feel it is valid to go with that Prometheus completely dismantled Batman without looking so much as if he'd been hit or put in effort, why exactly would Cap, if similarly you feel he but edges Batman in a hand to hand fight, fare much better?

[HulkSmash666]

1) I'm not suggesting Bats isn't as focused as Cap. I'm suggesting they would be equals. Both are their resident team's strategists, so it's obvious they have a great deal of focus in the battlefield.

2) I wouldn't sat wildly. I'd say Cap has an edge. He's stronger, slight edge in agility and speed, more endurance. Skill edge to Batman. Intelligence edge to Bats. Everything else is about even.

3) How did this become about Cap vs DD, Shang and Danny? I already stated that these guys are above Cap.

4) Wha??? Again, how did this become about Cap vs Cass? All i said was there's a skill gap. SKILL. Not at all did I say or even suggest Cap is anywhere near Cass in terms of a one on one fight. The SKILL gap between them isn't so great. It's probably about the same sized gap between Cap and Widow. Meaning there's a gap, but it's not huge, as in like a skill gap between Daredevil and Foggy Nelson is.

[HulkSmash666]

While I'm there actually. So, you say this:



If you feel it is valid to go with that Prometheus completely dismantled Batman without looking so much as if he'd been hit or put in effort, why exactly would Cap, if similarly you feel he but edges Batman in a hand to hand fight, fare much better?

Prometheus doesn't have Cap's skills on file. He did with Batman's. Cap's style is a unique style, much like others who have developed their own styles (DD, Spidey, even Bats has his own unique style). Which means Prommie is fighting a style he doesn't know. Which levels the playing field in regards to either of them not knowing their opponents styles.

Out of the two of them, who would you say is the more adaptable to a new opponent? Out of the two of them, who would you say is the faster? Stronger? Has better endurance? Agility? All round superior physicality?

[Matt the Manly]

Here's how I think Cap stacks up against the heroes individually:

Guardian - Cap is everything this guy wishes he was. Both have shields, but that's about where their similarities end. Cap is the far better fighter, is stronger, faster, his shield is tougher, and Cap doesn't tire. Guardian has some decent protective armor and some fighting skills, but nothing on Cap's level.

Dunno about this guy

Wildcat - If Cap were to fight Ted in a straight up fist fight, I'd be inclined to give Ted at least 3/4 out of 10, but throw in the shield for Cap and that's about it for Ted. Cap has him beat in pretty much every area (strength, speed, skill, agility, endurance, reflexes, damage soak, tactics).

I dont think Ted can get anything against Cap, given the ease with which Bruce dispatched him thr few times they fought

Arsenal - The kid can shoot, and he's no slouch in the hand to hand, but even still, Arsenal is a poor man's Hawkeye. Cap outclasses him in every way, except marksmanship, but Cap's been fighting alongside and training Hawkeye for years, so there's nothing Arsenal can do that Cap hasn't seen, planned for and beaten a hundred times before. One hit and the kid is done.

The thing with Arsenal, like any decent archer is that he doesn't use lethal area affecting weapons in most of his fights. But with prep and standard arena ruled , theres nothing to stop him from blowing up Cap from range or using something like his Phantom Zone arrow

Huntress- Same as with Arsenal, although I think Helena might be a tad bit tougher. She's a better H2H fighter than Arsenal, and probably more agile. But still, nothing on Cap's level. Cap makes short work of her. One solid hit and she's out.

Cap should beat Huntress easily

Catwoman - She fares even worse than Huntress. Least Huntress has a ranged game. Selina is agile, maybe even close to Steve in that regard, but that's a questionable "maybe". Her whip is gonna a whole lot of fuck all to Cap, and her claws won't even land a swipe. Steve one shots her arse.

Cap beats her too

Robin (Tim Drake) - Steve's first real challenge, but only until he gets within range. Tim will be throwing off everything in his utility belt to try and slow Cap down. Gas, sonics, stun grenades, tasers etc could take Steve out if he was trapped in a room or alley way. But Steve isn't dumb enough to get himself stuck in an alley or trapped in a room. Tim could be the one Steve has the most trouble with as Tim's got the skills and the gadgets to corral Steve if given the chance. And with help from the others, he may just be able to do that. But individually stacked against Cap, Tim is simply outclassed. Cap's stronger, faster, tougher, more agile, has better endurance, is a better fighter, and more tactically sound than Tim.

1. Tim has prep and has some excellent feats with prep.im pretty sure he beat Shiva once with a speed enhancing drug
2. Even if he didnt , his standard gear is more than good enough to gain the win while the others are dogpiling him

Katana - Finally, a worthy weapon to go against Cap's shield! Katana's got the skill, too. She's no Lady Shiva, but Katana is one of the best sword fighters on DC Earth, and her agility and speed is close enough to Cap's to make him work. Cap's good enough to avoid the sword, though, and once he lands a hit, she'll be softened up nicely for the finishing blow.

How is Cap beating someone who has stalemated Shiva( Outsiders vol2 14 in case you are interested ) and gained an upper hand over Deathstroke( outsiders vol4 19)

The Question (Vic Sage) - Sage is a pretty sweet H2H fighter, but he's not on the level of DC's big league fighters (Cass, Shiva, Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Bruce), so therefore he's not on the level of Marvel's top fighters (DD, Shang, Danny, Elektra, T'challa, Cap etc). Which means he's not hanging with Cap in a fight for very long. He's a moderate distraction at best.

Probably

Azrael (original Jean-Paul Valley) - The only one on the team who can possibly take Cap in a straight fight in the arena. But in a city environment Cap's got other options rather than just going head to head with the teams biggest hitter. Cap's advantage is his range game. Azrael (in his original 90's flame-bladed gauntlets) has no range, and needs to get in close to land a hit. Cap can hold him off with shield throws and set up a KO if he can use Azrael's Terminator-esque determination against him. Azrael has the edge in strength and durabilty, is about equal in speed and endurance, and his mind has access to thousands of years worth of Order of Dumas training, so he's got a lot of skill and experience to draw on. I'd still give Cap the edge in skill and tactics, and with the superior weapon he could use these advantages to take Azrael down.

End of series Valley literally manhandled Bruce

Judomaster- I'm going with the original Judomaster here, not the female replacement with the weird "Aversion Field" which allows her to avoid direct attacks. From what I've been able to find on the original Judomaster is he's roughly in the same ballpark physically as Wildcat. Normal peak-human-ish fighter, who's specialty is Judo rather than boxing like Wildcat's is. Or maybe Batroc would have been a better example. The guy specialises in one particular style, but is pretty well versed in others. But regardless, Cap is stronger, faster, more agile, tougher and has the shield. Judomaster gets owned.


So individually Cap can take all of them. As a team, I think Cap takes out a few (Catwoman, Huntress, Arsenal, Wildcat, Question, Judomaster and Guardian go down without much fuss) but I think Robin, Azrael and Katana will bring him down. The others make for a good distraction and wear Cap down a bit, while these three manage to get their shots in and take Cap out.

No....the rest chill while Arsenal sends Cap to the Phantom Zone
And with an hours prep Tim can easily rig up enough explosives to blow Cap to hell and back/ when he is not outright gassing him / tranquilising him mid fight

Seriously even if it was just a fist fight, Caps not gonna win

[Slade1]

Prometheus doesn't have Cap's skills on file. He did with Batman's. Cap's style is a unique style, much like others who have developed their own styles (DD, Spidey, even Bats has his own unique style). Which means Prommie is fighting a style he doesn't know. Which levels the playing field in regards to either of them not knowing their opponents styles.

Out of the two of them, who would you say is the more adaptable to a new opponent? Out of the two of them, who would you say is the faster? Stronger? Has better endurance? Agility? All round superior physicality?

You are forgetting Prometheus' "Key". Which he can use to just BFR Cap.

[Pendaran]

Prometheus doesn't have Cap's skills on file. He did with Batman's. Cap's style is a unique style, much like others who have developed their own styles (DD, Spidey, even Bats has his own unique style). Which means Prommie is fighting a style he doesn't know. Which levels the playing field in regards to either of them not knowing their opponents styles.

Out of the two of them, who would you say is the more adaptable to a new opponent? Out of the two of them, who would you say is the faster? Stronger? Has better endurance? Agility? All round superior physicality?

So, basically, Prometheus with the skill of 30 of DC's best fighters including Batman and his armor and his strobes, can in your view dismantle Batman like almost nothing, but Captain America, ehh? How does that work with wanting to also say the gap between the two is so small? Apparently Cap's fighting style is so perfect and unique that all of that won't matter?

Beyond that though, out of Batman and Captain America as far as such things? Cap edges Batman in strength, and has better endurance, that's about it. That's the big reason he can /edge/ Batman in a pure hand to hand fight. There's nothing that particularly puts Captain America as being more adaptable than Batman in a fight.

Beyond that, as someone else notes, guy has a "teleport you to limbo" device.

[Captain Smith]

FYI - real folks in our world have tested against strobing flashlights that are supposed to disorient you. Using simulation guns - Commando Strobe gets shot by quite a few. The strobes don't bother them. If you wear in on your helmet, thanks for the aim point.

[Pendaran]

Take your pick then, either the strobes helped Prometheus not at all and he just wasted Batman of himself, which, if you find that valid, makes it even more notable to say "but Cap, naaaahh". His tech generates them at efficacy beyond the real world, this being comics (and my being doubtful the writer even considered that). Or Batman can have fights unimpaired by everything from all the conditions mentioned, but can't handle strobes for some reason.

[Carabas]

If it's "Cry For Justice" Prometheus he can just zap Cap with his new magical deus ex machina Vibranium-dissolving gadget as long as nobody is sneaking up on him with a bow and arrow.

Huntress- Same as with Arsenal, although I think Helena might be a tad bit tougher. She's a better H2H fighter than Arsenal, and probably more agile. But still, nothing on Cap's level. Cap makes short work of her. One solid hit and she's out.

If even Lady Shiva had to work really hard and failed to beat Huntress down, then she is not getting one-shotted by Captain America.
Neither is Cheshire or anybody else on either list for that matter, no more than goofballs like Batroc are.

[Guy1]

I'm pretty sure Shiva having trouble with Huntress is a low showing.