"Batman And Robin Eternal" vs "Robin War"

[Claude]

So, now that both are over - which Gordon-era tale of Bruceless Robins did you prefer?

Both are definately imperfect items - and "Robin War" suffers specifically for ending on a cliffhanger that we haven't seen addressed at all - and both are guilty of sidelining characters who should have had a larger role.


BRE makes a commendable effort to introduce new villains and characters - Mother, Orphan, Sculptor - but, unfortunately, not a one of them is especially interesting. Whereas the Owl involvement in Robin War comes with some great iconography, and the return of Lincoln March, both previously popular elements. But there's not a lot too them - the Talons are footsoldiers now, and March steps out of nowhere towards the end of the event.


Both do a pretty good job with Damian - his scene in BRE where he sets the other Robins straight is a bit of a highlight, both for himself and for the clear emotional growth and openness of Bruce between the time spent training Dick in the flashbacks and his time training Damian more recently. Whereas Damian walking into a self-sacrifical trap in Robin War because he's taking Batman-sized responsibility onto Robin-sized shoulders is tragically believable and in character, as is it's place as the bait to give the Owls ownership of Dick.



So, what do we think? For me, Robin War has the edge. I came out of the final issue with greater affection for Duke Thomas, whereas I probably liked Harper a little less by the end of BRE, and although Tim and Jason are sidelined in both - their escape from the cages in Robin War has a kind of ridiculous joy to it that was lacking in their fairly irrelevant Bane/Azrael subplot. Dick is a fairly bland "pleasant person" in BRE, finding himself positioned as the lead but not actually taking much action by himself - and worse, often used as base for Mother or Harper to monologue about their own importance and significance. Robin War shows us Dick betraying his friends and manages to make it seem in-character, which shows a greater courage in writing.

[OWL45]

As far as a Dick Grayson story I will go with Robin War. If Nightwing Rebirth doesn't address the ending of Robin War I will have to re-evaluate my position on this.

[Kurtzberg]

For me it's Robin War, despite it's faults, it wasn't the long drawn out mediocrity that was BRE.
Robin War fleshed out Duke at bit more, created a plot line for Dick moving forward, and allowed issues in regards to Damian to be at least touched on, all in a short span. It had problems, but it also had a limited amount of issues, so I'm more forgiving in that regard. Also, it had some modicum of surprise to it, the double cross by Dick or Damian siding with the Owls weren't things you could see coming miles off. The series also added another layer to an already pretty good Gotham baddie in the Owls, by taking them to a global scale, that at least has potential.
BRE had a lot more pages to work with and really didn't seem to actually accomplish much. Cassandra got reintroduced, and Harper's backstory got fleshed out, but in 26 issues, not much else of consequence really happened. Most of the story seemed really paint by numbers too, written with the subtle nuance of dropping anvils, every story development seemed to be called out by readers weeks in advance because they could see the twists coming in their sleep. Also, the villains weren't very good at all, Mother was a pale pretender to the al Ghul/Bond villain level mastermind figure and Orphan/David Cain was in no way more interesting than his previous incarnation.

[Rakiduam]

Robin war was better. It wasn't a great story but it was short, had some good moments, didn't ignore Damian existence and actually was about Robins.

[Godlike13]

Wasn't perfect but Robin War was the better of the two. It kept my interest till the end. Where with Batman And Robin Eternal there came a point where i was just waiting for it to end.

[JasonTodd428]

It's Robin War for me as well. Overall while some issues has their faults it told a decent story and one that I was able to thoroughly enjoy. It fleshed out Duke Thomas's character, which is important for him going forward as a potential partner to Batman. It added more depth to the Owls and in so doing made them seem more formidable then they have been. It also developed a new plot line for Dick that is seemingly going to figure in the new Nightwing series. I was also genuinely surprised by the twists in it and both the Court of Owls and the Councilwoman felt like very real threats.

B&RE was better then BE so I'll give it that. Having said that though I came away from it feeling pretty disappointed in the villains, who I thought were lame and because a lot of the time I felt like I knew what was going to happen before it happened, which made all the so called twists in the story fall flat to me. It still lacked a bit of subtlety and it probably would have worked out better as an even shorter stories then it was to tighten things up a bit more. In the end this one left me coming to a decision to avoid weeklies in the future because every one of them had been a disappointment to me in one way or another and I've ended up feeling like I've wasted both my time and my money.

[Dzetoun]

I will continue the consensus. Although Robin War was uneven and it's central developments are as yet unexplored, overall it was clearly the superior story. That's especially true with regard to the characters of Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne, but in general it was simply better plotted, more thematically rich, and potentially more impactful for the Bat Family and beyond.

Batman and Robin Eternal had a lot of ups and downs, with some good writing and a lot of very mediocre writing, although no truly bad writing. The flashbacks to the early days of Dick as Robin were generally good. The development of Harper, Cullen, and Cassandra was effective. But the villains were not impressive and the plot was extremely predictable. In addition, like Batman Eternal it was forced to carry continuity threads and plot seeds that had little to do with the story at hand. Finally, the ultimate theme, while certainly welcome, could have been handled better than just having Damian lay it out bluntly in a memory-cum-sermonette. Even the final conversation between Dick and Bruce was much too on-the-nose (or maybe on-the-snout since we are dealing with bats) to be really resonate emotionally.

[bat_girl_cc]

Robin war was better. It wasn't a great story but it was short, had some good moments, didn't ignore Damian existence and actually was about Robins.

Did you even read B&RE until the end? or did you dropped it after issue #1?...i'm asking because, Damian appears, he has at least one defining moment, which its more than i can say for Robin War...and B&RE was, well, ALL about the Robins...even Harper, Steph and Cass are referred to as Robins in some moments...it was basically a story, about what means to be Robin...Robin War was about making Dick, Damian and Duke look cool, and it did, sadly at the expense of others (poor Jason, Tim and the Talons, i feel for them) but it did little else.

[Aahz]

Did you even read B&RE until the end? or did you dropped it after issue #1?...i'm asking because, Damian appears, he has at least one defining moment, which its more than i can say for Robin War...

Damian gave one talk, that was only needed since the other acted really out of character. And was completely forgotten afterwards untill nearly the end.

and B&RE was, well, ALL about the Robins...

No it was mostly about Harper and Cass.

Robin War was about making Dick, Damian and Duke look cool, and it did, sadly at the expense of others (poor Jason, Tim and the Talons, i feel for them)

And B&RE didn't do that? Just think of that dumb scene were mother suddenly one shots Jason, Tim and Damian (after she had been barely able to held her own against Harper) so Dick could rescue them or Midnighter saving everybody else in the battle before.
And after his fight with Cass, Jasons only function in this story was to make other characters look good.
Even the Orphans went within on issue from to good to been taking out by some of DCs strongest non powered heroes, to easily taken down en mass by Spoiler with a taser.

[Rakiduam]

Did you even read B&RE until the end? or did you dropped it after issue #1?...i'm asking because, Damian appears, he has at least one defining moment, which its more than i can say for Robin War...and B&RE was, well, ALL about the Robins...even Harper, Steph and Cass are referred to as Robins in some moments...it was basically a story, about what means to be Robin...Robin War was about making Dick, Damian and Duke look cool, and it did, sadly at the expense of others (poor Jason, Tim and the Talons, i feel for them) but it did little else.

I wish had dropped it after issue #1!

But if you want to go into details, Cass' story sucked, the mother realy sucked, and Damian's late 5 min appearance, that only served to have the complet set and point out, again, Tynion ridiculous notion that the Roins each represent a different part of Batman's mind really, really sucked. That's probably why he can't write them as a integrated characters.


Ultimately both stories failed to have this character working together but for me Batman and Robin was so more disappointing and boring and irritating. It had 50 issues to create interactions and it wasted them in Harper and trying to define concepts that don't need definition. It also cost so much more, that made it more offencive.

Do I care what Tynion thinks it means to be Robin? Definitly no, I don't care what King thinks it means to be Robin either. Robin shouldn't have ONE meaning when people so different have used the mantle.

[Aahz]

Both didn't really deliver what I would have liked to, which was the Robin really working as a team, giving each a similar important role, and highlighting his individual strength. And both sacrificed a logic and consistent plot to somehow get cool looking scenes in.

As a Robin story I would probably give the edge to Robin War. Since it was really Robin centred while Eternal was more a Cass and Harper Story, and sidelined the Robins to much in favour of other characters (like Midnighter, Azrael, Bane and the Spyral guys).

and although Tim and Jason are sidelined in both - their escape from the cages in Robin War has a kind of ridiculous joy to it that was lacking in their fairly irrelevant Bane/Azrael subplot.

Even if I'm a big fan of Tim and Jason and liked the prison scene, I think it would have been probably better if they hadn't been in that event. Without them playing babysitter for the WAR-Kids, the Kids could had have done more on their own. It was after all supposed to be an event about them, but apart from Duke they were all sidelined. And appart from the prison break scene Jason and Tims role in this (end especially the way they were removed from the final showdown) wasn't really satisfying for me.
The Bane/Azrael subplot gave at least finally Tim the opportunity to show off his skills, but failed to do the same for Jason and turned him imo basically in Tims sidekick.