"Batman And Robin Eternal" vs "Robin War"

[darkseidpwns]

Robin War,it had a solid beginning and ending even if the middle was lacklustre. The development with March was also puzzling but it did something for a bunch of characters and concepts moving forward. BRE only reintroduced a bunch of classic characters and used them to prop Harper who's on the way to limbo as we speak.

[Rakiduam]

Did you even read B&RE until the end? or did you dropped it after issue #1?...i'm asking because, Damian appears, he has at least one defining moment, which its more than i can say for Robin War...and B&RE was, well, ALL about the Robins...even Harper, Steph and Cass are referred to as Robins in some moments...it was basically a story, about what means to be Robin...Robin War was about making Dick, Damian and Duke look cool, and it did, sadly at the expense of others (poor Jason, Tim and the Talons, i feel for them) but it did little else.

I wish had dropped it after issue #1!

But if you want to go into details, Cass' story sucked, the mother realy sucked, and Damian's late 5 min appearance, that only served to have the complet set and point out, again, Tynion ridiculous notion that the Roins each represent a different part of Batman's mind really, really sucked. That's probably why he can't write them as a integrated characters.


Ultimately both stories failed to have this character working together but for me Batman and Robin was so more disappointing and boring and irritating. It had 50 issues to create interactions and it wasted them in Harper and trying to define concepts that don't need definition. It also cost so much more, that made it more offencive.

Do I care what Tynion thinks it means to be Robin? Definitly no, I don't care what King thinks it means to be Robin either. Robin shouldn't have ONE meaning when people so different have used the mantle.

[Rac7d*]

BRE was a waste because Harper is leaving and nobody wanted her to begin with

Duke is showing a lot of skill despite minimal training, I honestly wish we saw more Rikko in robin war
I hope she doesn't disappear, she should join the future batgirl club with steph, cass and tiffany

[Markov]

Preferred Robin War it wasn't perfect but it set out to tell a story about youths being in danger and in terms of responsibility what should people do about it, it took some turns it never needed too and it didn't portray everyone at their best but I felt it was worth my money,

B&R E told a story unrelated to how it was pitched last year one I was quite excited about, it's been the biggest let down in story I've read as it was one I allowed myself to be excited about as it become dominated by 2 characters that don't appeal to me, I'd have no problem with a Harper and Cass book DC should give them one, I wouldn't read it but I'm sure some would but this seemed out of place to do it, I'd also go as far as to say it's put me off reading any weekly series with multiple writers and artists involved again as it never felt cohesive

[NewMutant]

Midnighter was in Eternal so Eternal. :P

[The Whovian]

Robin War. Much better story and it was cool to see Damian take down Batbot Gordon. Even Nightwing got to knock him a round a little. Fun stuff.

I think BRE had potential but ultimately failed. It's not a bad story, it's just not a great one.

[heyevaxx]

When BRE was first announced and in the lead up to BRE01, there were many articles talking about the series "celebrating 75 years of Robins" focused on:
1) Dick Grayson's back story with Batman and his present day team leadership
2) telling Harper's back story
3) re-introducing Cassandra Cain

If I was a big Robin fan - one, some, or all - and didn't have an opinion of the others or I disliked one of them like Harper, I'd think by BRE26 that it was a huge failure. Why didn't it deliver on the "celebrating 75 years of Robins" parts of the marketing?

If I was a Cassandra Cain fan and didn't like Harper since she'd been introduced originally as a Cass stand in, by BRE26 I'd be very happy with how it all turned out. The balance was ok and only Harper, but none of the Robins, could have her origin changed like the BRE story required.

Luckily when I read articles like the ones below, I got a good feeling about BRE and prepared myself for changes to Cass and her sharing page time with Harper and the Robin crew. I'm real happy with how it turned out and I feel that JTIV and Snyder delivered on their pre release statements. At least the parts that I cared about.

2015.09.04 http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...-robin-eternal
Tynion Promises Cassandra Cain, Grayson & Bluebird Are Vital To Batman And Robin Eternal
Tynion also stated the importance that the impact Cassandra Cain -- making her modern day DCU debut in the series -- will have on Dick and the rest of the Robins when she arrives on the scene, and revealed that the mysterious backstory of Harper Row, now patrolling Gotham as Bluebird, will be a central theme of Batman and Robin Eternal.

2015.10.07 http://comicbook.com/2015/07/10/cass...-at-comic-con/
Cassandra Cain Returns in Batman and Robin Eternal at Comic-Con
Snyder called Batman and Robin Eternal “larger than the first one: globe-spanning, bigger secrets,” and said that it “honors the legacy of Robin and also brings a new angle to it and makes something very fresh.”
This series is going to reintroduce Cassandra Cain to the DC Universe," returning co-writer James Tynion IV told reporters this morning. "We can’t talk too much about that just yet but this is a character that for me at least I have loved for my entire comic-reading life. The fact that we have the opportunity to bring her back in a very, very central role — she is on of the three leads of this story, her, Dick and Harper Rowe — I’m really pumped.”

[Caivu]

Hmm.
For me, Robin War was better written, but Eternal had more spectacle.
Both were entertaining in their own ways.

[Aahz]

“honors the legacy of Robin and also brings a new angle to it and makes something very fresh.”

Thats something they didn't deliver in my opinion.

[Pohzee]

Do I care what Tynion thinks it means to be Robin? Definitly no, I don't care what King thinks it means to be Robin either. Robin shouldn't have ONE meaning when people so different have used the mantle.

That was King's point about what it means to be Robin...

[bat_girl_cc]

Damian gave one talk, that was only needed since the other acted really out of character. And was completely forgotten afterwards untill nearly the end.

No it was mostly about Harper and Cass.

And B&RE didn't do that? Just think of that dumb scene were mother suddenly one shots Jason, Tim and Damian (after she had been barely able to held her own against Harper) so Dick could rescue them or Midnighter saving everybody else in the battle before.
And after his fight with Cass, Jasons only function in this story was to make other characters look good.
Even the Orphans went within on issue from to good to been taking out by some of DCs strongest non powered heroes, to easily taken down en mass by Spoiler with a taser.

- Damian on Robin War, was mostly try to make him look cool and badass not really knowing what they were doing with the character...and on B&RE the robins starting to lose hope its natural when you lose and keep losing (against Mother) every lead was a dead end, until the very end.
- Nope, Harper and Cass just stood up more, IMO, the story was about Batman, Dick, plus what it means to be Robin, Harper and The Mother...Cass was a failed project that Mother didn't even knew about at first, and she just happened to be the one to kll Harpers mom and run to Batman, who gave her a usb device for her to give to Grayson...and that sums up Cassandras importance in the weekly...also, remember that Harper was supposed to be the second Robin instead of Todd, in many ways she is a female Robin.
- The Mother was only good at sword-fighting, not hand-to-hand fighting...she even runned away from Grayson so that she could get to her swords, and she said that she needed to prepare herself when she got to her swords, then she actually became a physical threat, and she lost to Grayson, but isn't Grayson supposed to be a better fighter than the others? and Cass stomped her in the end, as she should!

[bat_girl_cc]

I wish had dropped it after issue #1!

But if you want to go into details, Cass' story sucked, the mother realy sucked, and Damian's late 5 min appearance, that only served to have the complet set and point out, again, Tynion ridiculous notion that the Roins each represent a different part of Batman's mind really, really sucked. That's probably why he can't write them as a integrated characters.


Ultimately both stories failed to have this character working together but for me Batman and Robin was so more disappointing and boring and irritating. It had 50 issues to create interactions and it wasted them in Harper and trying to define concepts that don't need definition. It also cost so much more, that made it more offencive.

Do I care what Tynion thinks it means to be Robin? Definitly no, I don't care what King thinks it means to be Robin either. Robin shouldn't have ONE meaning when people so different have used the mantle.

You do realize that most of what you said its interely subjective, right?
I don't think Mothers story sucked, like at all...and Cass Old Cass > New Cass, sure, but so it happens, with every other character! pre-new-52 universe > new 52 universe...get used to it...original > copy...it happens everytime.

[bat_girl_cc]

The might be because Patrick Gleason didn't really write an issue of Robin War, because he was sick at the time. Gleason gets credited with the plot, but Ray Fawkes did all the dialogue and any fine tuning of what was likely a rough outline Gleason had passed on to him, so he could step into Gleason's shoes as Gleason was out of commission for a while. Scott McDaniel handled the art for Gleason on that issue as well.

Oh, i didn't knew that.

[joybeans]

From a broad perspective, they suffer from a few of the same symptoms: a muddled middle despite (despite strong starting and ending points), rushed scripts, and patchwork art. But the causes of those symptoms seem to be different: whereas "Batman and Robin Eternal" was too long, "Robin War" felt a bit too short for its ideas.

To its credit, "Batman and Robin Eternal" does seem to remedy several of problems plaguing "Batman Eternal". Gone are the superfluous subplots that are dropped and revisited during inopportune times, as well as the merry-go-around encounters of "I'm not the big bad". The side-adventure with Jason and Tim, while diverging off course, did at least give some much needed development to their brotherly relationship, something that has been mentioned offhand in the past, but never properly shown. And despite the focus of the main story on Harper Row, there was enough character pandering for others that felt appropriate without being excessive. Harper's story ends at a logical conclusion, with her taking the path that her real mother would have wanted, over the one Mother chose. The only real snag in her character arc was the reasons behind why she was chosen as the "perfect Robin"; outside of Batman mentioning good grades, there really isn't much reason that's shown. But where BRE really suffers is in the frequent, momentum-halting flashbacks. Flashback stories in general are a tricky narrative device to pull off, even when they're necessary for the overarching story to proceed. The use of intermittent flashbacks (seemingly taking its cues from Arrow) results in not only a heavily disjointed backstory, but also harms the forward progress of the present day story with frequent interruptions. Flashbacks are best handled in self-contained and continuous one-shot episodes. Another problem with BRE lies with its rather weak antagonist. It's difficult to properly characterize what kind of villain Mother is, as she appears to be a Chinese buffet of different villain tropes that don't quite fit within one another, with her tragic sob story in a third world country, her mustache-twirling villain monologues, and her last-minute transformation into a video game final boss.

"Robin War" is a shorter story, but in many ways, feels bigger. It gives some great perspective from Duke and Damian on the whole Robin movement, and features strongly written issues from Tom King and Lee Bermejo. The ending also adds an interesting hook for a villain group that has, frankly, lost a lot of steam since their debut. Unfortunately, Robin War doesn't quite flesh out all of the elements of its story enough, most notably Councilwoman Noctua and her involvement with the Court of Owls. The Detective Comics and Robin: Son of Batman issues penned by Ray Fawkes, while hitting the main key story beats, didn't really add enough to the overarching narrative. Perhaps Tomasi and Gleason writing their respective issues instead, or Fawkes filling in with the Teen Titans and Red Hood/Arsenal tie-ins would have helped this matter. Overall though, Robin War seemed to do more with less, while still allowing for fun Batfamily interactions. It also has a better handle on its theme, that "Robin is a concept that can mean different things to inspire different people to heroism", as opposed to the "No, Robin is NOT a child soldier after all" theme of BRE.

[bat_girl_cc]

Robin War,it had a solid beginning and ending even if the middle was lacklustre. The development with March was also puzzling but it did something for a bunch of characters and concepts moving forward. BRE only reintroduced a bunch of classic characters and used them to prop Harper who's on the way to limbo as we speak.

" it did something for a bunch of characters and concepts moving foward " ? moving where? Grayson is ending people! Seeley-King no more...its only Seeley now, with his own ideas and concepts.
And JTIV tweeted like 2 days ago about Harper's story not being over, he has plans for her...which like-wise means that she will eventually appear on Detective Comics sometime in the future.