"Batman And Robin Eternal" vs "Robin War"

[Rakiduam]

You do realize that most of what you said its interely subjective, right?
I don't think Mothers story sucked, like at all...and Cass Old Cass > New Cass, sure, but so it happens, with every other character! pre-new-52 universe > new 52 universe...get used to it...original > copy...it happens everytime.

Well, of course. It is my opinion of what story is better, it is kind of the point of the thread. It's going to be subjetive.

That was King's point about what it means to be Robin...

I agree with him, but I would have liked more weight behind the words. Show not tell kind of thing

[Lady Nightwing]

I much prefer Robin War. It lost a little steam in the middle of the arc but overall the story was better structured and I felt all the characters were portrayed better. I read BARE right up until issue 26 but I cringed the most of the way through it. I grew to like Harper but the 'chosen one' aspect of the story never made sense to me. Batman said something along the lines of "If I could have chosen a perfect canvas it would have been her" but why?! It was a terrible celebration of Robins 75th anniversary too. Tim felt like the most in character but his major feat in this book was defeating Azrael with Techno babble and pseudo science. Jason had some pithy dialogue but for all intents and purposes he might as well not have been there. (Sorry Jason fans). Dick spent most of his time running around, wringing his hands and telling people not to fight. Towards the end I was hoping Damian wouldn't turn up. But he did and promptly slapped Dick in the face- making Alfred the only member of the core Batfamily who hasn't assaulted Dick. Yay! Batman was a tool throughout. Ugh Azrael! I find Cass Cain bland and generic (though admittedly the scene with Cass and Harper at the Opera was sweet).

Plus points of this series- I like Harper a little more. I think Stephanie and Cullen are great. Batwoman returned and Midnighter was awesome...though he did sort of underline how useless all the Robins were in this series.

[darkseidpwns]

" it did something for a bunch of characters and concepts moving foward " ? moving where? Grayson is ending people! Seeley-King no more...its only Seeley now, with his own ideas and concepts.
And JTIV tweeted like 2 days ago about Harper's story not being over, he has plans for her...which like-wise means that she will eventually appear on Detective Comics sometime in the future.

Nightwing and Batman,it introduced the Duke and Damian friendship which King will explore and Dick's story with the Court will continue,so it did do something moving forward. Harper returning=actual characters of Tec being sidelined.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

count me as another pro-Robin War-er. Neither were great, but neither were really bad either. But B&R:E was just kinda...dull, imo.

[Aahz]

The side-adventure with Jason and Tim, while diverging off course, did at least give some much needed development to their brotherly relationship, something that has been mentioned offhand in the past, but never properly shown.

Since imo the writers didn't made a good job in writing Jason, I wouldn't call this properly shown either. It was the same with the Jason Barbara team up in Batman Eternal.

Jason had some pithy dialogue but for all intents and purposes he might as well not have been there. (Sorry Jason fans).

I have to agree, but thats also the case with Robin War and his apperance in every other Batfamily event outside of his Tie In issues.

And JTIV tweeted like 2 days ago about Harper's story not being over, he has plans for her...which like-wise means that she will eventually appear on Detective Comics sometime in the future.

One of the mayor problem with the Eternals was imo the amount of cameos at expense of the support cast, when it is already announced that Azrael, Harper and other characters will have guest appearances, it sounds for me like Detective Comics will have a similar problem.

[K. Jones]

I think Robin War has the edge, too, in spite of being a crossover with some weaker chapters.

The only beats I truly liked in Eternal were obviously the elements that Seeley and Orlando brought to the table. What I do like about both is that they're essentially just Dick Grayson stories that happen to have over characters helping him. But Eternal overreached. Like, what purpose did introducing Bane and Azrael into it serve at all? What did the Sculptor really contribute? Is Cassandra's new moniker worth the way they nerfed David Cain? Does Mother have any lasting power? Eh ... but it was nice to see Dick bring the Robins and the Spyral sides of himself together to combat an "Evil Mastermind"esque threat with a dark mother / female iconography that clashes nicely with the Ra's al Ghul types that also do that sort of thing.

Robin War was ironically, since it's a crossover, a far more concise story with a simpler premise.

Anyway, as usual, all the King & Seeley beats were the best parts and I trust these guys more than anybody in ages with the keys to the Batworld because it means they can plan things good and proper without having to acquiesce to a dozen other ongoing stories that might clash.

[dropkickjake]

After initially reading the first 12 issues of B&R:E, I decided to wait to read through it all once the final issue came out. I think it benefits quite a bit from this style of reading rather than waiting a week between installments. I also gave Robin War a one sit through reading recently. I'll admit that I was disappointed in both of these when I read them as they were coming out, but I think they are both actually pretty good. Both have some pretty noticeable weaknesses, but I think that both are enjoyable if you don't go in expecting The Dark Knight levels of quality. I'll agree that Robin War edges Eternal, but not because Eternal was dismal.

Eternal had some misfires. Azreal, who I don't particularly care about even in his 90s iteration, really just seemed to miss the point entirely. Total whiff for me. That said, I actually quite enjoyed the issues the issues that Kelly and Lanzing wrote. The buddy cop banter between Tim and Jason was fun, and this was probably the first time ive genuinely liked Tim. Not being a huge Harper was a little tough through this. She got propped up alot throughout the series. I liked the handling of Cass. Damian's absense through the first two acts was noticed and stupid. Looking at this as a Dick Grayson fan, he had some good moments. He got to take on the big bad (mostly) in the final fight. His fight with Az was very Dick Graysonish, winning through goodness and compassion. One of my biggest gripes about the series is that he beat David Cain... OFF PANEL?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? But it had some great moments. I enjoyed the final battle in the arctic; it felt very much like a season finale of Young Justice. The ballet scene was fantastic. And though it wasn't particularly subtle with its theme, the idea of how Batman "parents" his Robin, and in fact what good parenting is in general, was a theme worth exploring. It is this theme that makes Mother a worth while villain, at least on the broad strokes. She is a dark reflection of Batman. Its a shame that her character design was so bland.

Robin War, the stregnths of which have already been covered, was just a little bit better, particularly for me as a Dick Grayson fan. He actually took center stage here, and was set up for his Court/Parliament of Owls connection that will likely be touched on in Nightwing. I think it would have been better if King had just written every issue and thus had more tight control of what was going on.

[Aioros22]

You do realize that most of what you said its interely subjective, right?
I don't think Mothers story sucked, like at all...and Cass Old Cass > New Cass, sure, but so it happens, with every other character! pre-new-52 universe > new 52 universe...get used to it...original > copy...it happens everytime.

Original > copy got nothing to do with the discussion. New versions aren`t copies of the former. They`re the same characters fit in a new mold. Sometimes they work better, sometimes they don`t. And with that in mind, some characters have been better handled since the reboot.

It`s a matter of tone and presentation not battle feats.

[JBatmanFan05]

Real Batmam Chronology has Robin War taking place within B&R Eternal, like right after B&R Etern #6.

That seem about right to people?

[Dzetoun]

Real Batmam Chronology has Robin War taking place within B&R Eternal, like right after B&R Etern #6.

That seem about right to people?

Don't know. The timing note at the end of Batman and Robin Eternal #26 that it's "a month later" after both Batman #50 and Robin War could support that, although a more direct reading is that Robin War takes place after Mother's death. That, however, creates story problems in its own right. Also Seeley's comments on Twitter seem to say both stories take place after Grayson #13 but before Dick's war with Spyral, even though there seems literally nowhere in that stretch to fit them in.

In other words, and not for the first time, it's pretty much a hopeless mess.

[Arnoldoaad]

I think Ba&RE was the better story as a whole
but Robin War had the best single issue, the issue with Grayson pen by Tom King is absolutely great and stands on its own and apart from both stories as Robin War progresses the plot starts to make less and less sense and the ending was kinda like the ending to a completely different story

Eternal at least was consistent, its story was not about the Robins per say, it was about Harper and how she could be the next robin, it is her story for the most part which fits the ending but not the beginning also because this story is so big it also includes a lot of little trends that are more than anything side stories and not very important to the main plot and in some cases go absolutely no where
for example the initial suspicion that Tim Drake was the traitor really doesnt amount to anything as well as the return of Jean Paul Valley
I love Azrael but I think he deserved his own story and not have it push here, the same could be say about Cain but I think that was done way better than Azrael.
The biggest flaw of both stories is why i think Grayson #15 is such a perfect issue
The story shows us why each of them are unique on their own and why do they kind of complement each other as a force, on one side Robin War loses that flavor as it moves on and Eternal is just completely distracted juggling 3 or 4 different plots.



My Brothers and I...
that line alone is what the Eternal should had been about.
a band of brothers join up to defeat the only villain that Batman couldnt stop and save the world in the process

I didnt dislike the story of Eternal but I really wish it had more moments like this one of Robin War or at least that it had more of an inclusion of ¨The Robins¨ concept instead of focusing so much in the villain of the story. Eternal needed more flashbacks of Jason and Tim, more moments between the guys and not just the girls.

[JBatmanFan05]

Don't know. The timing note at the end of Batman and Robin Eternal #26 that it's "a month later" after both Batman #50 and Robin War could support that, although a more direct reading is that Robin War takes place after Mother's death.

Real Batman Chronology makes a pretty good case to create a spot for Robin War early in B&R E, right after B&R E #6:

There aren’t really any gaps, but I’ve created one after B&R Eternal #6. The reason “Robin War” cannot go later is due to several reasons: Damian returns for the first time, the Robin Gang disbands, Duke has yet to discover his parents, Red/Hood Arsenal lead-in occurs before B&R Eternal, the Gotham Academy lead-in occurs before B&R Eternal, simple consideration for the numbering of titles, etc…

THAT ALL BEING SAID, the editorial note in the final issue of B&R Eternal is a bit odd innit? Like it is worded strangely. Best to take it with a grain of salt....

Honestly, these dumb editorial notes are meant to advertise other “jumping-on point” comics that are essential to being prepared for upcoming arcs, notably what is to come with “Rebirth.” They have little bearing on the narrative and, at least, much much less bearing than what action/progression/narrative is clearly going on in the stories themselves.

So Eternal and Robin War happen in the background during Superheavy essentially, with the shorter Robin War ending some before Eternal ends, then end of Superheavy (and then Eternal's epilogue with Bruce).

[Dzetoun]

So Eternal and Robin War happen in the background during Superheavy essentially, with the shorter Robin War ending some before Eternal ends, then end of Superheavy (and then Eternal's epilogue with Bruce).

I suppose that works as well as anything. Of course, if you try to add in other titles, it really gets interesting, especially as we barrel toward Rebirth. Darkseid War evidently comes after all of this, but now the big Superman crossover Tomasi just started jumps to after Darkseid War, and who knows where Titans Hunt, supposed important for Rebirth, fits in? And the current run of regular Grayson issues (not the annual) seems very likely to end with the use of the Somnus Satellite to "put the genie back in the bottle" with regard to Dick's identity, as Seeley phrased it, so that seems to come after all of this as well.

In other words, situation normal for the end of one narrative era and the start of another, .