My problem with 'The Dark Knight Returns'

[Cybermat47]

Hey guys, I thought I might join up here to express an opinion of mine, and see if you can change it (because I own the movie adaptation of TDKR, and I'd like to like it again).

My problem with TDKR comes from this part:



It seems bizarre to me that Batman would say such a thing, when Jim Gordon uses guns.



Hell, Batman uses guns in this story, and I'm not talking about the riot supressor on the Batmobile or the line-launcher rifle.



It's not exactly helped by the fact that police officers and soldiers, who certainly aren't cowards, use guns.

So what's going on here? I know that in this scene, Batman is taking charge of the Sons of Batman, but wouldn't saying that guns are used by the enemy lead to them attacking police officers and innocent citizens with guns?

Anyway, feel free to convince me that this line isn't problematic, I'd actually appreciate that. The more Batman stories I can enjoy, the better.

[HellHere]

While I don't think that Batman classes soldiers and police on quite the same level as street crime, there is (from what I remember) a fairly anti-authoritarian streak running through the book. Police and soldiers are the tools of the government who are portrayed as overly controlling, right-wing areseholes.

[t hedge coke]

Hey guys, I thought I might join up here to express an opinion of mine, and see if you can change it (because I own the movie adaptation of TDKR, and I'd like to like it again).

My problem with TDKR comes from this part:



It seems bizarre to me that Batman would say such a thing, when Jim Gordon uses guns.

He's giving an inspirational speech to a bunch of scared, rioting, looting citizens, primarily young (teens/early 20s) gang members.

Like bootcamp or self help programs, there's going to be some tough love. And, he likely doesn't trust people who're cutting off fingers or harassing mugging victims after beating up muggers, stealing cars, etc, with a bunch of firearms.

[Steven Ely]

Come on now. Context is key. Batman thinks to himself as he's fighting the gun-toting Joker committing mass murder, "A gun is a cowards weapon, a liars weapon (so he's thinking of the Joker as a "coward", a "liar"). We (thinking of society) kill too often because we've made it easy (with guns), too easy. Spearing ourselves the mess and the work."

And then as Batman says to the gang - "This is the weapon of the enemy (the "enemy" meaning Batman's enemies like the Joker, etc.). We do not need it. We will not use it." - Batman's trying to give some morality against murder to the former Mutant thugs that had formed a Batman idolizing Sons of the Batman gang and had been murdering and mutuality people.

[Cybermat47]

He's giving an inspirational speech to a bunch of scared, rioting, looting citizens, primarily young (teens/early 20s) gang members.

Like bootcamp or self help programs, there's going to be some tough love. And, he likely doesn't trust people who're cutting off fingers or harassing mugging victims after beating up muggers, stealing cars, etc, with a bunch of firearms.

Hmm, I like this explanation. Makes sense. Thanks man

[reverrb]

batman was referring to criminals when he said this

[ed2962]

He's giving an inspirational speech to a bunch of scared, rioting, looting citizens, primarily young (teens/early 20s) gang members.

Like bootcamp or self help programs, there's going to be some tough love. And, he likely doesn't trust people who're cutting off fingers or harassing mugging victims after beating up muggers, stealing cars, etc, with a bunch of firearms.

That's how I interpeted it. The Mutants/Sons of the Batman are borderline sociopaths who are ready to burn Gotham down for it's sins. He says the line about guns to try to get get under control.

[rpi]

Batman understands that Gordon and the police use guns as part of their structure. Alfred has a gun. He personally hates them, but he understands that people he trusts do use them. It's one of the aspects of the character that works because he's a comic book fantasy, something that makes him cooler than the real world.

[DamianThomas]

Even Batman uses projectile weapons. They may not use bullets, but can easily be just as deadly. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

[t hedge coke]

Even Batman uses projectile weapons. They may not use bullets, but can easily be just as deadly. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Frank Miller's never written a Batman who wasn't a hypocrite, for that matter. Most of Miller's characters are, in some way or another, hypocrites. Daredevil, Batman, Jim Gordon, the Big Guy, Marv.

Often, there are other characters around to call them on their hypocrisy, but not always.

[SicariiDC]

Um, my issue with it is the...bad art. Obviously there is much worse (DKSA) but for a piece of material that is considered one of the best GRAPHIC novels of all time...it is pretty **** graphically...

Story is cool tho, and I really like the animated adoption (the score is great too)

[t hedge coke]

Um, my issue with it is the...bad art. Obviously there is much worse (DKSA) but for a piece of material that is considered one of the best GRAPHIC novels of all time...it is pretty **** graphically...

Bad, or art you don't like?

If it was genuinely bad, would it be appreciated by so many people for decades now, from the fresh to comics through to very serious pros?

I'm cool with you not liking the art, but there ain't no universe where it's "pretty **** graphically" in any objective, or even in any populist or critical sense.

[dancj]

When I first saw The Dark Knight returns I thought Curt Swan was the best and was shocked they allowed such a terrible artist to draw a comic.

Over a couple of years though I grew to love it and think the art is excellent. I don't care so much for Curt Swan any more though - other than for nostalgic reasons.

[Clark_Kent]

My art tastes have changed a lot as I've gotten older. When I was 8 or 9, reading DKR for the first time, I was like sicariiDC -- I found the art to be kind of muddy & occasionally hard to follow with what's going on in a panel. As I got older though, it's become one of my favorite works to look at. Now, whether that's due to my fondness of the story, or not, I don't know. But I look at it now & find it beautiful. I have also found my opinion on DKSA to have changed...I still don't like 90% of it, but when you take the story into account I'm not sure it could have had art any different. it's crazy, kinetic, colorful, and zany...and the art is, too.

[Scott Taylor]

I think when Batman said "the enemy" in that speech, it was intended to mean "your enemy." Which in this case meant all the rioters and looters in Gotham. Context is key here. He clearly wasn't referring to the police.

Also, DKR is a story that exemplifies an "end justifies the means" philosophy. So its bound to have abundant hypocrisy on all sides.