Taking a Stand: I Support Janelle Asselin's critique of Teen Titans #1

[king mob]

The problem I have with the critique is that it seems to be better placed as more of a general critique rather than singularly focused on one cover or artwork.

It used this one example to provide context for a greater problem. It's a very good example of the problem of objectification and sexulaisation.

It's fantasy, and art is purely subjective... If one doesn't like that particular art on the cover all they need to do is move on to something else that better fits with their preferences. I don't really get the need for a critique. Someone has an opinion? As does everyone else.

Because if you're a woman then you see this everywhere. You don't have this battering oppressiveness hammering you down if you're a bloke because it's something that passes you by. Also, art can be objective and Asselin is being objective in her criticisms, something those having a pop at her are ignoring or missing.

For example, there's an amazing new series coming out soon by the amazingly splendid Natasha Allegri called "Bee and Puppycat", fans of Adventure Time would know her from Fionna and Cake and this would provide a complete contrasting work of art in comparison to what is available with the Teen Titans cover.

Great, but why can't a comic full of characters marketed at kids be appealing to kids and women as well rather than a small core of male fans?

instead of trying to force my views and opinions

At what point does Asselin 'force' her opinions upon anyone? At what point does she come round your house and force you to read her opinions? People don't like them then fine, let's her your informed opinions then rather than the strawmen being thrown around to try to exclude women from making their voices heard.

With this being said, this type of critique to me at least seems to fit much better in a blogging that addressed a general overview and outlook of how Females are portrayed within the various art, which... this isn't a new thing by any means, this very topic has been brought up time and time again for awhile now, it's not like this is something new being said.

This is what I mean. You'd rather she never had this printed on CBR and vanished into the Blogosphere? You'd rather she never had her voice heard among the hordes of male writers CBR use?

And yes, it's not a new thing. The fact people are still discussing it shows there's still a massive problem.

I feel, however... that the solution is not to try and force views or attack art that doesn't fit within certain preferences but rather to support and maintain art that does.

I'm seeing this word 'force' all the time now not only here, but across social media. Asselin has never forced her views on anyone. She is however commenting on how weird sexualised images of teenaged girls are forced upon women.

You assume and pretend Asselin has the power here. She doesn't. You also assume she's not supporting those superhero comics, and other genres of comics that are providing a bit more equality.

forcing critique

See, here's that word again. It's a dog whistle word like 'whining' or anything else to slur Asselin without making it too obvious.

Side note: It's likely that the harassment brought upon her was from one of these "chan" sites, it has the same pattern in which they take when doing this type of thing where they pick someone and go harass them. They do the thing with releasing information/hacking and threats and trolling, etc... so, there is a possibility that it was somewhat unrelated as a response to the critique as being solely a response to the critique and more to do with those chan trolls. I don't know who it was but that is a possibility just based on the Modus Operandi

I have no doubt they were involved but the response to this was widespread across social media and across the internet. This wasn't one wee group, this was a wide spread of people who I assume were mainly or wholly men.

[king mob]

I mentioned Kirsty Wark's documentary about misogyny and last night it was broadcast. It's on the whole an excellent film, though there's a few problems with it. Those who can will be able to watch it on iPlayer, and I'm sure a Youtube upload will be up soon. It very much touches on the whole 'Geek culture' aspect as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._of_the_Sexes/

[Tonamelt]

Great, but why can't a comic full of characters marketed at kids be appealing to kids and women as well rather than a small core of male fans?

Because The New 52's version of Teen Titans is marketed at a small core of male fans?

If DC wants to have an smaller audience instead of a big one, it's their decission, it's their money, it's their loss.

[t hedge coke]

it's not like this is something new being said.

Really? You saw another critique of that cover that said that cover was a particularly boring group shot for a first issue, with an inexplicable paper airplane, some odd perspective issues, general lack of dynamism, poor biological and wardrobe choices, with distracting flourishes?

That'd really been said before about that cover?

force...
...force...
...forcing

You used that word a lot. Can you provide one clear example where anything was being forced? Because she wasn't forcing any comic to be anything, she wasn't forcing anyone to read her critique, and no one is being forced to take any action after reading it.

If you feel justified in coming online and giving your opinion about her critique (and you should), why should she have to shut up (or only talk about nice things)?

Because The New 52's version of Teen Titans is marketed at a small core of male fans?

If DC wants to have an smaller audience instead of a big one, it's their decission, it's their money, it's their loss.

And... no one's allowed to at all criticize that? Or say it's disappointing?

[Tonamelt]

And... no one's allowed to at all criticize that? Or say it's disappointing?

I just answered king mob's question, if someone is allowed or not to criticize or say it's disappointing, that's not for me to decide.

[ed2962]

Because The New 52's version of Teen Titans is marketed at a small core of male fans?

If DC wants to have an smaller audience instead of a big one, it's their decission, it's their money, it's their loss.

It'd their right if they intended for TT to have a small audience, but ! doubt it's the case. Keep in mind that in the past TT was DC's biggest seller at one point. Undoubtedly the females were drawn in an attractive and sexy way, but those visual depictions did so without making them look solely purient. Perez etc weren't copying posing out of Playboy, you know?

Also keep in mind that Teen Titans is basically a play on the old superhero trope of the kid sidekick. The whole reason that trope even exists is because DC wanted more kids to read Batman so they introduced Robin. To say that now the title is only for adult men is problematic at the least.

It would be as if someone said "Let's do Power Rangers movie only now it's going to be R-rated." What's the point in excluding half the crowd the material was originally intended to attract?

[Max Aero]

It's fantasy, and art is purely subjective... If one doesn't like that particular art on the cover all they need to do is move on to something else that better fits with their preferences. I don't really get the need for a critique. Someone has an opinion? As does everyone else.

Actually no. The people who told you art is purely subjective were either lying or had been lied to themselves. It's a lot more complicated than that.

The saying that 'art is purely subjective' is a cop-out. It's people trying to avoid thinking critically about art, or something they love. But the action of critiquing art, looking at art from a number of "rules" has been around hundreds of years and isn't being subverted every time someone tries to shut down criticism with "well it's just subjective, man".

Critiquing art is important. If you don't want a critique to exist, it comes across as anti-critical thinking. If you don't agree with a particular critique, you discuss the art work and the critique to determine points where you disagree, not it's usefulness.

*The way these rules interact with art is not that they have to be followed, but when critiquing (or creating) you determine how the artist has utilized or subverted these rules, and ultimately discuss how that does or doesn't work.

... there is a possibility that it was somewhat unrelated as a response to the critique ...

No. It's completely a response to this critique. And it's closer to your reaction than not. It's an (extreme) reaction to having someone 'force' you to think about things you don't want to, things you possibly love or are afraid that they'll (sexism, objectification) be taken away.
I don't think it should be too big a deal that after forcing women for so long to look at the bulk of women in media through the male gaze (we are forced to view women as how men view women. women watching men watching women) that every now and then you are 'forced' to read a critique of this action and it's possible effects.

[Lt Trouble]

So, if... for example, I didn't particularly care for this art contained within the Teen Titans book, there are other alternatives that might better fit my preferences like "Bee and Puppycat", and so... instead of trying to force my views and opinions, I would probably say that this isn't exactly the book, the art... the scene that fits me and I would instead check out stuff that does.

And if you don't care for her blog commentary on the sexist depictions of women in comic books, there are other blogs that might better fit your preferences. Nobody is forcing you to read her article or to have whatever opinions you're having about it.

[Charles RB]

There's a useful illustration on sexualisation of characters from an old IO9 thread: someone complained about the very concept of these complaints and THE MEN ARE UNREALISTICALLY SEXUALISED TOO because the men are drawn with big muscles and blah blah. And someone else posted this:



because that's what sexualised male characters look like. We never see this in superhero comics. (Similarly, this old Shortpacked strip where Batman is redrawn as a female sex fantasy) Now, imagine the Teen Titans cover where all the guys looked like this. People would probably think that looked silly. It'd be hard to take them seriously as superheroes, right?

I do but it was Alan Moore who burst that bubble for me at a comic mart in Glasgow in the 80's when I asked him why he'd never work for Marvel and he explained the history of Marvel for about half an hour. After that my bubble was seriously burst.

But just think: in the LOEG world, the Bullpen was real!

[The Darknight Detective]

There's a useful illustration on sexualisation of characters from an old IO9 thread: someone complained about the very concept of these complaints and THE MEN ARE UNREALISTICALLY SEXUALISED TOO because the men are drawn with big muscles and blah blah. And someone else posted this:



because that's what sexualised male characters look like. We never see this in superhero comics. (Similarly, this old Shortpacked strip where Batman is redrawn as a female sex fantasy) Now, imagine the Teen Titans cover where all the guys looked like this. People would probably think that looked silly. It'd be hard to take them seriously as superheroes, right?

Not only that, the sales of those publications would fall off the table. The average male would not want to be seen with that, just like the average woman would not want to be seen with some of the covers of today.

[Michael P]

On the other hand, given how successful romance novels are, the average woman might buy them like hotcakes. Heck, Marvel and DC would probably kill to have Harlequin's numbers.

[t hedge coke]

Most superhero covers just aren't that good.

But, even when it's a nice cover, I tend to wish more Marjorie Liu comics had covers like her novels tend to. They're just more evocative, to me.

[The Darknight Detective]

On the other hand, given how successful romance novels are, the average woman might buy them like hotcakes. Heck, Marvel and DC would probably kill to have Harlequin's numbers.

This is true, but certainly not overnight. In the meantime, the floppy industry would be on its deathbed.

[Puppetmaker Grae]

I miss 'believing' that Sonic the Comic was really edited by a talking robot.

At least we know that Tharg is real, there are photos!

[Charles RB]

At least we know that Tharg is real, there are photos!