Taking a Stand: I Support Janelle Asselin's critique of Teen Titans #1

[Tonamelt]

I like Rocafort's art a lot as well. He has an amazing style.

Which is why I hope he and other artists can re-examine how they approach drawing female characters, and why.

I think his art is PERFECT as it is, but that's just my opinion.

[Hamdinger]

I guess my problem is that I went to high school with several girls that looked very much like what's being complained about, and the complaints sound an awful lot like the undeserved, sexist labels they were given simply for having that body type.

Her complaint wasn't just about a girl with big boobs on a cover, but the fact that said were drawn like large breast implants shaped like basketballs and that the characters waist was smaller than her thighs instead of what a woman actually looks like. She even included a link to an artist's tutorial on what actual breasts look like and how to draw them instead of the flesh tones soccer balls we get.

In addition it was the fact that a teenage girl was wearing a low tube top that she would be popping out of with any movement, not something that makes sense for running jumping much less fighting in.

[The Darknight Detective]

Her complaint wasn't just about a girl with big boobs on a cover, but the fact that said were drawn like large breast implants shaped like basketballs and that the characters waist was smaller than her thighs instead of what a woman actually looks like. She even included a link to an artist's tutorial on what actual breasts look like and how to draw them instead of the flesh tones soccer balls we get.

In addition it was the fact that a teenage girl was wearing a low tube top that she would be popping out of with any movement, not something that makes sense for running jumping much less fighting in.

Artists really should have models wear some of the outfits they think are feasible first before they put their ideas to paper, IMO.

[ExcelsiorPrime]

Normal ( size wise--probably a bit too thin) 15 year old.



Comic book 15 year old. I think the age of a character should at least dictate some proportion and I love rocafort art.
Not slamming him. I think comics as a whole has done away with age differentiation.



Would anyone argue about this art representing an average teenage boy?

[t hedge coke]

Would anyone argue about this art representing an average teenage boy?

Prime, in his normal, everyday body:



When she is drawn seven foot tall and super-muscled while gawkier girls cheer her on, there might be an equivalence, but none of the boys in those two pics are drawn with unnecessary sexual exaggerations. One is drawn transformed into a power fantasy.

Rocafort is capable of drawing female superheroes as power fantasies, too, and he can draw exciting action shots. He just didn't here. The lack of action is rarer and lamentable, but the other stuff is too common in his work for no good reason. He's good. He's not above criticism.

[Stony]

Keep it civil, please
Discuss the content, not each other

[End of Time]

Keep it civil, please
Discuss the content, not each other

That's exactly what I'm pointing out... you end up discussing the artist when you ascribe certain negative traits to the work produced by an artist.

If Rocafort is responsible for producing sexist/misogynist artwork... how can you then seperate the sexist piece of work from the person who made it? How can you disconnect the creation from the creator?

[The Darknight Detective]

That's exactly what I'm pointing out... you end up discussing the artist when you ascribe certain negative traits to the work produced by an artist.

If Rocafort is responsible for producing sexist/misogynist artwork... how can you then seperate the sexist piece of work from the person who made it? How can you disconnect the creation from the creator?

Except it's more to do about what the industry wants than what he necessarily wants to draw, though.

If the higher-ups decided female chests should look more realistic, Rocafort and all of the other artists who draw them unrealistically would comply. Just like what happened during the Bronze Age when chest sizes increased across the board after the loosening of the Comic Code. I honestly doubt too many artists today would make a big huff about the change, either.

[Michael P]

That's exactly what I'm pointing out... you end up discussing the artist when you ascribe certain negative traits to the work produced by an artist.

If Rocafort is responsible for producing sexist/misogynist artwork... how can you then seperate the sexist piece of work from the person who made it? How can you disconnect the creation from the creator?

Pretty easily. First, you remember that sexist is an adjective, not a noun. And then you remember that little of this sort of thing is malice, but rather privilege and ground-in cultural behavior. He's not the disease, he's the symptom.

[Michael P]

Nice try, but I wasn't offering it as an excuse, just an explanation for why criticizing the cover is not a personal attack on Rocafort, which is where you seemed to be going with your question.

[Stony]

That's exactly what I'm pointing out... you end up discussing the artist when you ascribe certain negative traits to the work produced by an artist.

If Rocafort is responsible for producing sexist/misogynist artwork... how can you then seperate the sexist piece of work from the person who made it? How can you disconnect the creation from the creator?

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[ExcelsiorPrime]

Prime, in his normal, everyday body:



When she is drawn seven foot tall and super-muscled while gawkier girls cheer her on, there might be an equivalence, but none of the boys in those two pics are drawn with unnecessary sexual exaggerations. One is drawn transformed into a power fantasy.

Rocafort is capable of drawing female superheroes as power fantasies, too, and he can draw exciting action shots. He just didn't here. The lack of action is rarer and lamentable, but the other stuff is too common in his work for no good reason. He's good. He's not above criticism.

I agree. I mean Rocafort is under pressure to create a cover that will stand out from the others. Heck every artists has that pressure to put forth their best.

And they get instant feedback on whatever they draw..I mean faster than Writing criticisms which travel at the speed of click, reply, enter.

[End of Time]

Nice try, but I wasn't offering it as an excuse, just an explanation for why criticizing the cover is not a personal attack on Rocafort, which is where you seemed to be going with your question.

You can criticize the cover, no problem there, but when you classify it as being sexist, you add something to the mix that shifts the discussion into a whole new area.

Composition, lines, colour, inks, dynamics, all technical aspects. You can present a subjective point of view on those technical aspects. You can say that the way the team is presented is boring and overdone, that the characters are unevenly placed in the available space, that the characters in the background don't blend well with their surroundings. You can say that the linework is too light drawing equal emphasis to the background as well as to the foreground. You can even comment on the ridiculous proportions on the characters.

Sexism and misogyny however are moral aspects and by bringing them up you imply things about the artist. The artist made choices, put pencil to paper and produced this. By saying that this is a sexist piece of work, you imply that the artist who drew this is sexist. Because you are discussing the morality of a piece of work.

[7thangel]

so, people should remain silent if they see or read something that they view as sexist, racist, homophobic, disablist, etc?

even if they specifically state that they doubt the creator is sexist, racist, homophobic, disablist, etc, but their work/art/scene has those elements?

[galaxygnome]

You can criticize the cover, no problem there, but when you classify it as being sexist, you add something to the mix that shifts the discussion into a whole new area.

Composition, lines, colour, inks, dynamics, all technical aspects. You can present a subjective point of view on those technical aspects. You can say that the way the team is presented is boring and overdone, that the characters are unevenly placed in the available space, that the characters in the background don't blend well with their surroundings. You can say that the linework is too light drawing equal emphasis to the background as well as to the foreground. You can even comment on the ridiculous proportions on the characters.

Sexism and misogyny however are moral aspects and by bringing them up you imply things about the artist. The artist made choices, put pencil to paper and produced this. By saying that this is a sexist piece of work, you imply that the artist who drew this is sexist. Because you are discussing the morality of a piece of work.

No one is immune to sexism. No one has spent their life going "NA-NA-NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" to the every-day ways sexist messages are taught. I'm a queer woman and sometimes I need to take a hard look at the ways I'm consuming certain types of media and how it can be demeaning. Sometimes I also need to take a hard look at internalized sexism I'm projecting on other women when I catch myself policing them for their dress etc.

It's not an insult to call someone out on doing something sexist. Everyone will do things that are sexist. It's not a moral judgment on the artist's character. If that artist responds to being called out with "Hey you're all too sensitive there's nothing wrong with I did - get over it!! i love big balloon breasts on teenagers that's the only way they should be drawn!!" then maybe we have a problem where I'm beginning to think he has more issues with sexism than your average bear. That's not what anyone is saying here. No one is saying he is a misogynist, people are saying we are occupying in a misogynistic industry where the combined numbers of everyone seeing and putting out this cover doesn't notice anything wrong with it. It's not getting personal with the artist.