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  1. #61
    Read my mind Lois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I hope you enjoy this as well. I may be annoyed with DC but I'm certainly not intending to trash on the readers who will end up enjoying this. That's why I'm trying to get this complaining out of the way now, lol. I'm not going to go trolling the discussion threads once the direction finally starts hitting the shelves. If I were to find myself wanting to do something like that I'd remove myself from the boards. That's not cool.
    Thanks. *smiles*
    What I like about the threads here are that we can discuss things about our fave characters in the DC universe and respect each other's point of view too. *winks*
    And it would be pretty darn boring if all of us liked or disliked the same thing! LOL
    Last edited by Lois; 04-09-2016 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #62
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm with you there. My particular feelings on him as a writer today haven't changed, that's just critique, but I don't blame him for any of this. I assumed it was his pitch, and I assumed wrong.

    What ticks me off with the Kara situation though is that the writing will reflect a more positive relationship, and that will be used as ammo against the New 52 Superman, as if that had anything to do with it. Its in the writing, not the character. And yes, the same could be said for Superman before the reboot. It was the writing that was so poor. But unfortunately it was also the poor writing that screwed up his history so badly that the reboot was warranted. Better writing wouldn't have magically solved his origin issues...that had to be redone, whether they weren't with a softer or full approach. That's the big difference here, to me. New 52 Superman didn't have any jacked up, incomprehensible history. Better writing in this case really was all that was needed.
    I'm a big fan of rebooting. Because I think that if you want X amount of space and time to tell a good story, by all means take it and then give back. Yet I feel the same way about grounded Superman as I do now . The stench was awful but some good stories would have pulled us through.

    The origin thing... all you can do is move past that stuff. We got like four okay ish origins and several amendments (lol at return to krypton II) and that was enough so people would never have to touch more than what Quitely and Morrison put down.

    Getting Morrison on the ground floor was and is a foolproof idea. And I still remember the excitement of Superman showing up when Kara first landed. It's never that garbage is inherent to the characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Also, that interview was practically tailored for Jurgens.
    I have to wonder what you expected.

  3. #63
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrikeJP View Post
    We also have no idea how much Jon Kent will play into the future of the Superman line. One book could end up being very Super-family based with Clark, Jon, and Lois. While the other book could strictly focus on Superman and his adventures while Jon and Lois pop-up as needed.
    One book is written by the guy who invented the character of Jon and gave this interview saying he planned to write a lot about Jon in his book, Action Comics.

    The other Superman title right now is the book simply called Superman. Here are the June solicitations for that title that went out to retailers (Two separate #1s, but both by the writing team assigned to the Superman title):

    Superman Rebirth #1: "The world needs a Man of Steel, but can Superman protect the world while raising a super-son with his wife, Lois Lane?
    IT BEGINS: Now it’s Clark’s turn to be Pa Kent and teach his son what it means to be super, but who is hunting Superman’s son—and why?"

    Superman #1: "The Last Son of Krypton must decide whether to help his young son use his new and rapidly increasing abilities, or hide them from the world.
    THE CREATORS: The team supreme that brought fans the adventures of Damian Wayne in 'Batman and Robin' returns for the adventures of Superman and his offspring."

    So, you've got on the one hand the book written by the guy who invented the character of Jon, has been writing a lot of Jon in Lois and Clark, and explicitly promises a lot of Jon in his series, and then on the other hand there's the book written by the people who brought you the adventuries of Damian Wayne, where the summaries for the first two issues are both all about Jon.

    This whole freaking Superman line is now about Wesley Crusher. I mean, Jon.

    They're using Superman name to push people into liking a new 10-year old superhero, and killing off the existing Superman in the process, replacing him with a Superman who was outdated and had run his course five years ago and had lower sales, purely to allow them to set up Super-Jon, and offering not a crumb for anyone attached to the new52 universe's real Superman or who doesn't want to read about kids fighting crime after math class.

    I had the same idea as you did, that maybe there'd be a book where Jon wasn't really involved, or even a new52 Superman book, but those hopes got crushed as information slowly dribbled out. I mean, it's obvious that that book doesn't exist.
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 04-09-2016 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I hope you enjoy this as well. I may be annoyed with DC but I'm certainly not intending to trash on the readers who will end up enjoying this. That's why I'm trying to get this complaining out of the way now, lol. I'm not going to go trolling the discussion threads once the direction finally starts hitting the shelves. If I were to find myself wanting to do something like that I'd remove myself from the boards. That's not cool.
    I love how Jurgens said Nu52 Kara Zor-El will have a good relationship with Pre52 Kal-el considering that pre52 Kara didn't have a good relationship with him and would rather hang with the Batfamily or the Legion. Dude is like Claremont and only gives a damn about what he wrote. I really don't want another X-Men Forever. I was always told to be careful what you wish for cause you might get it just not the way you want, Is this really the way you want pre52 Superman back? Over the corpse of another?
    Last edited by Lokimaru; 04-09-2016 at 12:55 PM.

  5. #65
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Naturally there's a lot of my opinion in here. The chemistry didn't seem there at all and there was no balance for me to find.
    The lack of chemistry between N52 Superman and his cast was my main problem. I tried off and on for five years to get into this new version but ultimately I ended up really dissatisfied because there was no sense of unity here and for me that made Superman feel like a shadow of his former self. So I threw in the towel and moved on.

    I'm a lot happier with the Lois and Clark book then I ever was with any N52 Superman book. This Superman just feels more like the Superman I know and I like that he has a son and that he married to Lois so I'm adding most of the Superman line back to my pull for the first time since 2011 and this time around I don't foresee myself dropping out after a few issues.
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  6. #66
    Astonishing Member vasir12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    One book is written by the guy who invented the character of Jon and gave this interview saying he planned to write a lot about Jon in his book, Action Comics.

    The other Superman title right now is the book simply called Superman. Here are the June solicitations for that title that went out to retailers (Two separate #1s, but both by the writing team assigned to the Superman title):

    Superman Rebirth #1: "The world needs a Man of Steel, but can Superman protect the world while raising a super-son with his wife, Lois Lane?
    IT BEGINS: Now it’s Clark’s turn to be Pa Kent and teach his son what it means to be super, but who is hunting Superman’s son—and why?"

    Superman #1: "The Last Son of Krypton must decide whether to help his young son use his new and rapidly increasing abilities, or hide them from the world.
    THE CREATORS: The team supreme that brought fans the adventures of Damian Wayne in 'Batman and Robin' returns for the adventures of Superman and his offspring."

    So, you've got on the one hand the book written by the guy who invented the character of Jon, has been writing a lot of Jon in Lois and Clark, and explicitly promises a lot of Jon in his series, and then on the other hand there's the book written by the people who brought you the adventuries of Damian Wayne, where the summaries for the first two issues are both all about Jon.

    This whole freaking Superman line is now about Wesley Crusher. I mean, Jon.

    They're using Superman name to push people into liking a new 10-year old superhero, and killing off the existing Superman in the process, replacing him with a Superman who was outdated and had run his course five years ago and had lower sales, purely to allow them to set up Super-Jon, and offering not a crumb for anyone attached to the new52 universe's real Superman or who doesn't want to read about kids fighting crime after math class.

    I had the same idea as you did, that maybe there'd be a book where Jon wasn't really involved, or even a new52 Superman book, but those hopes got crushed as information slowly dribbled out. I mean, it's obvious that that book doesn't exist.
    I respect your position that you don't like the change. I know what it feels like when a beloved character gets shafted. However, you can't really say that the entire Superman line is about JON, JON, JON. In Superman: Lois and Clark, the book is about all three of them, but mostly Superman. Then we got three announced Super titles that most likely won't have him much except for some meet ups. It's like saying that Batman line is now all about Damian, and it's not. There will be stories where Jon will be the focus. Which make sense, he is Superman's son. It would make sense that Jon will be important. But look at Action comics solicits, seems to be more on Lex and Doomsday than the family life.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Yeah that isn't happening lol,I wouldn't mind writers having him be in love with someone from time to time but it should be story driven like Batman's romantic entanglements are. It shouldn't be "lets have them in a relationship because it's iconic or because it makes sense or because some fanboys want to think their character is cool".
    Of course, some readers think that Superman getting married is a natural and organic development in the life of the character. And that there are good stories to tell about an older, more experienced, and married Superman. And that they would prefer to see the character continue on in his life, rather than TPTB hitting the reset button so that suddenly Superman is younger, less experienced, and doesn't have any of the history he acquired over the years.

    Of course, if you want to,you can dismiss their opinions by saying "some fanboys want to think their character is cool." But that doesn't seem to have much to do with what people are actually thinking.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    I love how Jurgens said Nu52 Kara Zor-El will have a good relationship with Pre52 Kal-el considering that pre52 Kara didn't have a good relationship with him and would rather hang with the Batfamily or the Legion. Dude is like Claremont and only gives a damn about what he wrote. I really don't want another X-Men Forever. I was always told to be careful what you wish for cause you might get it just not the way you want, Is this really the way you want pre52 Superman back? Over the corpse of another?
    it's not like Jurgens is wrong, on new 52 kara has few ties to Superman. I'm not surprised she warmed fast to superdad

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Except the fact she remembers him as a baby and absolutely adored him. Yes it was weird that physically he was now older and they got off to a rocky start. But few ties to Superman is a ridiculous statement. That she'd suddenly hit it off with a guy who just looks like her cousin but in reality is from a different world and a lot older than even her actual cousin yes, would indeed be way out there. Not at all organic and completely forced if that's what they do.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  10. #70
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    Supergirl not liking Superman always felt like Didios horrible vision/taste + his need to micro manage books into the ground. Of course they should get along. Jurgens fixing the ineptly written relationship is just justifying my faith in him to set things right.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    The lack of chemistry between N52 Superman and his cast was my main problem. I tried off and on for five years to get into this new version but ultimately I ended up really dissatisfied because there was no sense of unity here and for me that made Superman feel like a shadow of his former self. So I threw in the towel and moved on.
    To me, Clark's cast are the people he works with at the Daily Planet, and then the Justice League- along with an array of villains and of course the city of Metropolis itself and it's residents. I've never really liked the idea that there has to be a Superboy, a Supergirl, a Superwoman, and all these other ancillary people who were often sort of built in to give young people a perspective on Superman from someone their age in a bygone era when comics served a different audience. I'm not a big fan of the way they talk about there being a Bat family, a Super family, etc.- to an extent these characters, especially Batman, are defined by the fact they stand alone in some way. Batman, with the paranoid masked vigilante haunted by his past who hangs out in a cave, Superman the man of tomorrow from another planet who soars through the skies as defender of earth, but can't get the pretty reporter he works with to notice him without the cape on, and so on and so forth.

    That doesn't mean these people can't marry, although I think a married Batman would be very odd because of the nature of character's psyche, but I do think you tell an organic story to get to that point. Maybe Superman marries Wonder Woman, maybe he marries Lois, but that should flow over time logically from plots and character moments as the years pass in a way that is native to the universe and the tale you're telling, you don't just airdrop in a replacement Superman where the story's already been told. You tell the story of this Superman we've been following the last five years and watching grow into himself. And, then preferably, they don't have a 10 year old crime fighting kid- which is cheesy beyond belief, and damages the Superman character, who is foundationally the protector of the young and the weak. If Superman has a kid who grows up to be a hero, that's great, but he should *grow up* first- see you at 18, SuperJon, you know?

    Anyway, more to the point of new52 Superman's relationship with Kara, Kon-L, etc.. I don't think those people are really important to the narrative these days. And I think his reaction during the He'l on Earth thing was spot on. Remember when Superboy asked Superman if he wanted to call in the "Teen Titans" and Superman was incredilous and said he'd have to have a talk with him about hanging out unsupervised with a group of teenage meta-humans? And now we're getting to the point where a 10 year old son of Superman is a superhero? I'm not even sure pre-Flashpoint Superman would endorse that as he has usually been depicted, although of course they will depict him in such a way that he does for the sake of the story they want to tell.

    To the extent that I'd put these people into the story at all, I think have Kara be a reminder to him that he is a Son of Krypton, someone who actually remembers Krypton, and can fly in and dress him down occasionally and vice-versa, is the right way to go. People who care about each other but are somewhat antagonistic at times and don't agree with each other's approach to the world- you know, family.

    Clark's relationship in the new52 comics with his primary cast- at the Daily Planet and in the Justice League- was actually better than before, to me.

    Clark and Jim were close in age, and though it wasn't always depicted consistently, Jim was his male best friend and wild sometimes roommate who'd crash on his coach and sneak a girlfriend in for a quick shower. The kind of guy who'd be Clark's drinking buddy if Clark drank (I personally wouldn't mind seeing a Superman who drinks, although I know some would howl). You need someone a little wild to sort of play off the somewhat stiffer Clark Kent persona, and Jim filled that role. They played video games together, and so on and so forth.

    That's something Jimmy Olson wasn't in the pre-Flashpoint world. There was a big age gap (Bigger between SuperDad and new52 Jimmy), and Clark was more Jimmy's mentor than friend.

    I also actually like the dynamic of Clark and Lois in the new52. I know, I know- whoa. What did I just say there? But, look, this gets into who Superman is, the hero of earth by day who any woman would want, but the guy who by day is friend-zoned and has to watch the woman he has a crush on move in with a guy who isn't half the man Superman really is, because he can't tell her his secret. But Clark isn't a pansy, he goes out and dates freaking Wonder Woman- who is depicted as the woman everyone wants.

    And then ultimately the dynamic grows and changes with Lois where she learns who he is. Her finding out without him telling her makes her a stronger character than previous versions are- a reporter who actually notices major news walking around in front of her. Then Lois, under pressure, in order to prevent Clark from suffering and undergoing torture as part of a blackmail scenario, actually does what a journalist would typically do, reports the story. Of course, this a is a betrayal of her friend, but it's also her job- an aspect and a struggle that should have been played up more, but was implicitly there. Ultimately, in some ways Lois was right to report it and Clark was also right to feel betrayed- because she was actually doing her job as a journalist and not as a friend, at the same time.

    Then after truth, they are left in an interesting situation. Some romantic tension, a friendship to repair, maybe now Lois is the one who feels like she wants to date Clark and feels like he's friend-zoned her because he has Wonder Woman, and Lois doesn't feel like she compares looks wise or something.

    Perry White in the new52 correctly pointed out the conflict of interest of Clark Kent reporting on himself as Superman, and was pissed about it during the Truth arc. Clark Kent gave a great and true speech about journalism when he chewed out Morgan Edge and quit the Daily Planet.

    Kat Grant as the young 25 year old who clearly adores Superman and is much more socially adept and sort of on the prowl, but is also a vulnerable human being who wants to be loved, and who is loyal enough to Clark to quit with him even though she really doesn't see the higher level principles involved. Then she sets up the blog with him.

    All of these are great characters and great ideas for adjusting the characters in the new52 world. They all made sense. More could and should have been done with them, but the foundations were there.

    And of course a new52 Superman who is not automatically the lead, and is sort of Batman's equal (With the two friends with different worldviews battling everything out), and Wonder Woman's lover, is very interesting in a Justice League construct, and could have made a great trio for the planned Triad comic that will now feature a different Superman who's older and marrieder.

    Quote Originally Posted by vasir12 View Post
    However, you can't really say that the entire Superman line is about JON, JON, JON. In Superman: Lois and Clark, the book is about all three of them, but mostly Superman. Then we got three announced Super titles that most likely won't have him much except for some meet ups. It's like saying that Batman line is now all about Damian, and it's not. There will be stories where Jon will be the focus. Which make sense, he is Superman's son. It would make sense that Jon will be important. But look at Action comics solicits, seems to be more on Lex and Doomsday than the family life.
    The author of Action Comics is the guy giving the JON, JON, JON interview embedded into the first post of the thread. I mean, I read the AC solicits, and it's true that they seem focused more on Doomsday and Luthor, but the guy who's writing the actually books said Jon is a huge part of them. What more proof do you want? And of course the other line solicits are literally all about Jon-centric storylines. Those are the two main books.

    As for Supergirl, Superwoman, and New Super-Man (Chinese guy)- they want more crossovers. That was stated. And I'm not that interested anyway. I'm still looking for Superman stories, with new52 Clark Kent. Or reboot the damn thing again. Maybe give JMS, the Superman: Earth One, guy, a monthly to unfold that character in an alternate universe. How about a 17+ rated Superman comic in it's own universe? How about just letting the new52 Superman do what he was doing instead of this step backwards?

    Anyway, Jurgens is very clear that all of these characters will heavily crossover. You will see Supergirl and SuperJon and so on and so forth. And Kara is already a little on the young side for a book I want to follow anyway.

    Superwoman we don't know as much about, but I'm skeptical.

    The Chinese Super-Man is actually the most interesting of the bunch, but he's only 17, and I would imagine will be looking for guidance from SuperDad. Maybe he and SuperJon will train together.

    I refuse to give any of this a chance if they won't give my Superman or some reasonable substitute for him a chance. I don't owe them anything. If I'm going to read it and just be all pissed off about it every month, why would I pay for it?

    But I was a solid part of their core fan base a couple months ago, subbed to every Superman title.

    So, you know, they are certainly alienating some people with this. Whether it'll be enough to force change, I don't know, I just know I refuse to go along with it. I'd rather do just about anything else with that money than support this.
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 04-09-2016 at 03:22 PM.

  12. #72
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Having said all of the above, if they gave us a new52 Superman book that was walled off from crossovers with the rest or who was antagonistic to the three parallel universe people, or isolated from them, and stayed that way, I'd get that book- because I like that character and want to see his further adventures. If they gave me an alternate universe Superman book that maybe because it was a side monthly rather than the main title could tell us an R-rated version of Superman, with no kid crime fighters, I'd get that book.

    I'm not taking my ball and going home because they've horribly screwed up the big Superman books, although I reserve the right to do that, but even more than that, it's because I see nothing about what they are doing that would appeal to me much on it's own. There's nothing I want to pay to read. And promising that they'll all crossover with each other more often makes it worse, because I didn't even really like the crossovers in the new52 era with Supergirl and Superboy and stuff, just Superman and adult superhero crossovers, and it makes it much, much worse when I actively dislike the Superman and SuperJon they are dropping into my Superman's spot. I won't pay them money just because they put the word "Super" on the table, if it is going to actively be something I dislike reading every month.

  13. #73
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    That is some wall of text, I have to say that I'm impressed. But whatever it says in there, I will simply point out the fact that Jurgens talks about Jon for five minutes in a half hour interview. It's okay, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    I love how Jurgens said Nu52 Kara Zor-El will have a good relationship with Pre52 Kal-el considering that pre52 Kara didn't have a good relationship with him and would rather hang with the Batfamily or the Legion. Dude is like Claremont and only gives a damn about what he wrote. I really don't want another X-Men Forever.
    Uh, Kara and kal definitely had a bond pre flashpoint.

    About being like Claremont, Jurgens jumped at the chance to write the new superman years ago and talked about how interesting the differences were to him as a creator.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    The lack of chemistry between N52 Superman and his cast was my main problem. I tried off and on for five years to get into this new version but ultimately I ended up really dissatisfied because there was no sense of unity here and for me that made Superman feel like a shadow of his former self. So I threw in the towel and moved on.

    I'm a lot happier with the Lois and Clark book then I ever was with any N52 Superman book. This Superman just feels more like the Superman I know and I like that he has a son and that he married to Lois so I'm adding most of the Superman line back to my pull for the first time since 2011 and this time around I don't foresee myself dropping out after a few issues.
    Morrison was very good, but I agree.

  14. #74
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    I also actually like the dynamic of Clark and Lois in the new52. I know, I know- whoa. What did I just say there? But, look, this gets into who Superman is, the hero of earth by day who any woman would want, but the guy who by day is friend-zoned and has to watch the woman he has a crush on move in with a guy who isn't half the man Superman really is, because he can't tell her his secret. But Clark isn't a pansy, he goes out and dates freaking Wonder Woman- who is depicted as the woman everyone wants.

    And then ultimately the dynamic grows and changes with Lois where she learns who he is. Her finding out without him telling her makes her a stronger character than previous versions are- a reporter who actually notices major news walking around in front of her. Then Lois, under pressure, in order to prevent Clark from suffering and undergoing torture as part of a blackmail scenario, actually does what a journalist would typically do, reports the story. Of course, this a is a betrayal of her friend, but it's also her job- an aspect and a struggle that should have been played up more, but was implicitly there. Ultimately, in some ways Lois was right to report it and Clark was also right to feel betrayed- because she was actually doing her job as a journalist and not as a friend, at the same time.

    Then after truth, they are left in an interesting situation. Some romantic tension, a friendship to repair, maybe now Lois is the one who feels like she wants to date Clark and feels like he's friend-zoned her because he has Wonder Woman, and Lois doesn't feel like she compares looks wise or something.
    you are way off here. First use the term friend zoned is pretty wrong, nobody owe other person sex.
    second: Lois didn't friendzoned Clark. She was into him, and he just literally ran away from her. So she moved on and clark never tried to get her again. the implication that Lois needs to know that clark is superman to date him is insulting.
    he could had told her his secret, he told jimmy. why he never told lois? It's superman that is weak and choose the easy way and rebound with WW

    I don't think she finding the truth make her better than any version, many other versions were pretty close to discover. even post crises, clark needed to tell a lie so Lois would let it pass and them clark decided to tell her and ask her hand in marriage.

    No, telling superman is clark kent isn't her job. She made it to save superman's life, she thought he was on danger and she acted on it. It's only a betrayal if clark want to see it, because she didn't betrayed him in any way.

    Use WW to lois feel inferior with her looks is pretty low, we are talking about feminist icons that inspire women not the contrary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Except the fact she remembers him as a baby and absolutely adored him. Yes it was weird that physically he was now older and they got off to a rocky start. But few ties to Superman is a ridiculous statement. That she'd suddenly hit it off with a guy who just looks like her cousin but in reality is from a different world and a lot older than even her actual cousin yes, would indeed be way out there. Not at all organic and completely forced if that's what they do.
    one things is seeing a baby and then a grownup that completely dissapointed Kara. She has almost not ties to new 52 superman, if superdad treats her well she will probably be ok with him

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