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  1. #46
    Back for noon feeding The Shredder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    A good chunk of this bitterness would subside if Jon turned out to be the son of Superman and Wonder Woman when you get down to it,I didn't see anywhere near this level of bitterness towards that Wonderstar character that turned out to be Magog all along,it's no secret why.
    I can definitely see this point of view.

    Considering the amount of complaining about Pre-Flashpoint Superman coming back as THE Superman for DC Comics, it seems apparent anything or quite frankly anyone closely associated with him is going to automatically receive pure hostility from the New52Superman campaigners. The direction, or possible directions that can or could be taken with REBIRTH be damned. If it's not their guy in the driver's seat, constantly remarking about dropping all titles, evidently, seems to be the knee jerk response.

    Although to be honest, this type of reaction isn't really exclusive to them. Around here, it's like 2011 Part 2: Electric Boogaloo.

    Looking at these boards I often think Superman should stick with just a Superman book because his own fans want to tear down his world. There's no point in having an extended family/line of books if haters are just going dismiss them. DC makes it worse by having different versions of the same characters in their attempts to please the haters.
    Yeah, I would say most faithful readers of DC Comics have a particular version they prefer, whether it be the Golden Age/Earth-Two Kal-L Superman, Silver/Bronze Age Earth-1/Pre-Crisis Superman, Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint/Rebirth Superman, New52 Superman, or even a out-of-continuity Superman. It's just literally impossible to please everyone as all of them are distinct in numerous ways, and of course everyone's going to take to one version more than others.

    I can't say I was so fickle as some guys around here appear to be back in 2011 when the whole New52 thing started. I grew up reading the Post-Crisis era, and will always have a affinity for it, but at the same time, wasn't blind towards the problems DC Comics had put themselves in and was OK with the reboot, and the Superman reboot for that matter. Action Comics started out well enough, but with all the shifts in creative moving in and out at a rapid pace (especially in the beginning), countless crossovers, gimmicks for media attention that pretty much went no where, stuff I felt was character regression as opposed to progression, and the lack of a supporting cast, I decided enough with the drivel, and cancelled all books after spending 2 1/2 years trying to stay interested.


    Whatever Supes they use post Rebirth I hope they stick with him,dont change the character to satisfy the fantasies of shippers and insecure fans,give a balanced and well rounded take on Superman that incorporates the best of his character from the decades of history.
    Very well said.

  2. #47
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I didn't find there to be any lack of chemistry with Kal and Kara. Indeed, I felt there was a lot of it they just chose to focus on the angst too much. Kon, well, that was part of his overall failing as a revamped character. Wasn't the character of Superman's fault.
    Naturally there's a lot of my opinion in here. The chemistry didn't seem there at all and there was no balance for me to find.

    Superman failed as a steady lynchpin. Because they decided to start new 52 in two timelines simultaneously with writers who weren't communicating, we ended up with a half starter between James Dean and tobey Maguire. He was supposed to be a brash younger version, and yet with what Kon and Kara had going on he was also stuck as the older brother to the two bratty teens. And I say that as one who loved that SG run. Meanwhile Kon was sorta kinda evil and without a soul? Superman never hit if off to a point where you know where they stand when they got together, which is why Kara was neither here nor there with him in Doomed. Nothing like they were on previous occasions. I was a RL reader and have to say that didn't even factor in on that flip. Kon went away and it didn't even matter.

    Between Kon and Kara, they threw in that whole bit about hating clones to give them something, but it had nothing to do with who she was in her own book. Which changed distinctly several times to give her more life than Kon.

    And now Kara is getting flipped again, Kon is long gone, no one cares about h'el, and Superman will be changing basically at the reboot level.

  3. #48
    Spectacular Member StrikeJP's Avatar
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    I feel as if there is a lot of unnecessary presumptions as we head into Rebirth. We have no real idea what's going to happen to New 52 Superman. He could die. Or appear dead only to return down the line at some point. No matter what, they can come up with some contrived story to bring him back if they need to.

    We also have no idea how much Jon Kent will play into the future of the Superman line. One book could end up being very Super-family based with Clark, Jon, and Lois. While the other book could strictly focus on Superman and his adventures while Jon and Lois pop-up as needed.

    I do feel that this is a story that has never been explored before (as far as I know). Never has a previous-continuity character replaced a current-continuity character. It has some interesting potential, that I would like to see played out. On top of that, Superman has a son... something else (sort of new) that hasn't truly been explored.

    That being said, I do think there needs to be one Superman and one consistent continuity (at some point down the line). Could you imagine Grant Morrison having to explain Superdad's origin? "Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple. Doomed Universe. Desperate Parents. Last Hope. Steal Identity." It's a bit ridiculous. And I would have a hard time buying Superdad's relationship with any of the other New 52 characters if they come to accept him as if nothing happened (e.g. Supergirl, Batman, Wonder Woman).

    For now, I'll enjoy the ride. I like me some Post-Crisis Superman, so I'm excited. But DC is playing a dangerous game by possibly alienating New 52 fans and convoluting an already convoluted Superman continuity. And if DC does bring back New 52 Superman to replace Post-Crisis again? Oy. Post-Crisis fans might hang themselves.

  4. #49
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    We should put together some money so we can pay Quitely to do the "steal identity " panel.

    The thing that should be clear now is that Jurgens has pretty much nothing to do with Rebirth itself. For all we don't know and he can't or won't say, this version might be fully immersed in this world. If not, re establishing ties with other heroes is pretty easy.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Naturally there's a lot of my opinion in here. The chemistry didn't seem there at all and there was no balance for me to find.

    Superman failed as a steady lynchpin. Because they decided to start new 52 in two timelines simultaneously with writers who weren't communicating, we ended up with a half starter between James Dean and tobey Maguire. He was supposed to be a brash younger version, and yet with what Kon and Kara had going on he was also stuck as the older brother to the two bratty teens. And I say that as one who loved that SG run. Meanwhile Kon was sorta kinda evil and without a soul? Superman never hit if off to a point where you know where they stand when they got together, which is why Kara was neither here nor there with him in Doomed. Nothing like they were on previous occasions. I was a RL reader and have to say that didn't even factor in on that flip. Kon went away and it didn't even matter.

    Between Kon and Kara, they threw in that whole bit about hating clones to give them something, but it had nothing to do with who she was in her own book. Which changed distinctly several times to give her more life than Kon.

    And now Kara is getting flipped again, Kon is long gone, no one cares about h'el, and Superman will be changing basically at the reboot level.
    I never got the sense of family and unity from superman,kara and kon relationships. it was one big failure from superman line
    now with rebirth I wonder how they will work superfamily connections

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    We should put together some money so we can pay Quitely to do the "steal identity " panel.

    The thing that should be clear now is that Jurgens has pretty much nothing to do with Rebirth itself. For all we don't know and he can't or won't say, this version might be fully immersed in this world. If not, re establishing ties with other heroes is pretty easy.
    I'm with you there. My particular feelings on him as a writer today haven't changed, that's just critique, but I don't blame him for any of this. I assumed it was his pitch, and I assumed wrong.

    What ticks me off with the Kara situation though is that the writing will reflect a more positive relationship, and that will be used as ammo against the New 52 Superman, as if that had anything to do with it. Its in the writing, not the character. And yes, the same could be said for Superman before the reboot. It was the writing that was so poor. But unfortunately it was also the poor writing that screwed up his history so badly that the reboot was warranted. Better writing wouldn't have magically solved his origin issues...that had to be redone, whether they weren't with a softer or full approach. That's the big difference here, to me. New 52 Superman didn't have any jacked up, incomprehensible history. Better writing in this case really was all that was needed.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 04-09-2016 at 11:54 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrikeJP View Post
    I feel as if there is a lot of unnecessary presumptions as we head into Rebirth. We have no real idea what's going to happen to New 52 Superman. He could die. Or appear dead only to return down the line at some point. No matter what, they can come up with some contrived story to bring him back if they need to.

    We also have no idea how much Jon Kent will play into the future of the Superman line. One book could end up being very Super-family based with Clark, Jon, and Lois. While the other book could strictly focus on Superman and his adventures while Jon and Lois pop-up as needed.

    I do feel that this is a story that has never been explored before (as far as I know). Never has a previous-continuity character replaced a current-continuity character. It has some interesting potential, that I would like to see played out. On top of that, Superman has a son... something else (sort of new) that hasn't truly been explored.

    That being said, I do think there needs to be one Superman and one consistent continuity (at some point down the line). Could you imagine Grant Morrison having to explain Superdad's origin? "Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple. Doomed Universe. Desperate Parents. Last Hope. Steal Identity." It's a bit ridiculous. And I would have a hard time buying Superdad's relationship with any of the other New 52 characters if they come to accept him as if nothing happened (e.g. Supergirl, Batman, Wonder Woman).

    For now, I'll enjoy the ride. I like me some Post-Crisis Superman, so I'm excited. But DC is playing a dangerous game by possibly alienating New 52 fans and convoluting an already convoluted Superman continuity. And if DC does bring back New 52 Superman to replace Post-Crisis again? Oy. Post-Crisis fans might hang themselves.
    I laughed harder at that Morrison's explanation of yours than I should have.

  8. #53
    Omnes Viae Ad Infernum 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Well, that did NOT sound good. I mean, for us New52 Superman fans.

    Look, I started reading Superman before COIE (of course, didn't follow him as closely as I do-or did- now), and I started collecting his comic books in the pre-flashpoint days. So I can understand why the fans of that version of the character are excited (I got some cool things from that interview). But I also agree with what others (including the op) have said:

    1. His time has passed.
    2. DC did a full reboot 5 years ago and presented us ALL with a new version of Superman, which I find very good. Times change. This Superman has more of an edge, an attitude (without going dark), and I liked it. A lot.
    3. He is pretty damn powerful.
    4. Some new characters were introduced.
    5. And hell, finally, SMWW.

    So, DC did all this for nothing, it seems. Why get rid of new52 Superman? There was no need. DC wanted us ALL to get into the new52 bandwagon, and some of us did. What for? To tell us "take a hike" 5 years later? Bullsh*t. They simply do not have the balls to stick to their own plans/ reinventions.

    Also, that interview was practically tailored for Jurgens.

  9. #54
    Read my mind Lois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersonh1 View Post
    I'm delighted. DC makes a lot of boneheaded decisions about their characters, but every now and then they do an about turn and reverse. It took a decade for them to repair the damage done to Hal Jordan, but this time it only took five years to bring back the version of Superman that I care about, and want to read. I said when I read Convergence Superman that it was great to see his and Lois have their story advanced, and to see the character move forward. I thought it would be great if they'd pick up that storyline at some point. They did, and now it look like he's going to be THE Superman again. The same Superman I started reading in 1988 with Exile, the Krypton Man storyline, Panic in the Sky, Doomsday, Death and Return, on and on... all of that is what this Superman experienced. This is the Superman I invested so much time reading about and collecting during the triangle era.

    I'm so looking forward to being able to read about him again. I'm so looking forward to seeing his story continue.
    Am delighted too. *smiles*
    Been a fan of Superman since the age of five when I first started reading his comics.
    I can't believe it's been more than fifty years of this Superman fan reading comics about the Man of Steel. <GRIN>
    Last edited by Lois; 04-09-2016 at 12:01 PM.

  10. #55
    Omnes Viae Ad Infernum 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Eh, tweeted Dan Jurgens. I don't expect him to reply, but I'll post his answer here if he does.

  11. #56
    Read my mind Lois's Avatar
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    Do respect and understand the OP point of view.
    Don't agree with it however, but, I can understand how some of the Superman fans feel about this change.
    Some are pleased with it and some are not. And no, I don't speak for every Superman fan either.
    It's just the sense I get when reading the posts here in this thread.
    Felt the same way when the New52 came about. Didn't like the idea of it at all. But, I was willing to give the New52 comics a chance.
    Am open to new ideas about Superman. Over the years I've seen many a change regarding the Man of Steel.
    Am also willing to give Rebirth a chance and then decide whether or not I like it after I've read some of the comics.
    And in conclusion I'm hoping that DC will get a good balance where both fans of the New52 and the Pre-52 fans can have comics we all can enjoy reading.
    Last edited by Lois; 04-09-2016 at 12:24 PM.

  12. #57
    Read my mind Lois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Eh, tweeted Dan Jurgens. I don't expect him to reply, but I'll post his answer here if he does.
    That would be really interesting to read if he does indeed reply.

  13. #58
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Eh, tweeted Dan Jurgens. I don't expect him to reply, but I'll post his answer here if he does.
    What'd you ask? And yeah, curious to see if you get a response.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Well, that did NOT sound good. I mean, for us New52 Superman fans.

    Look, I started reading Superman before COIE (of course, didn't follow him as closely as I do-or did- now), and I started collecting his comic books in the pre-flashpoint days. So I can understand why the fans of that version of the character are excited (I got some cool things from that interview). But I also agree with what others (including the op) have said:

    1. His time has passed.
    2. DC did a full reboot 5 years ago and presented us ALL with a new version of Superman, which I find very good. Times change. This Superman has more of an edge, an attitude (without going dark), and I liked it. A lot.
    3. He is pretty damn powerful.
    4. Some new characters were introduced.
    5. And hell, finally, SMWW.

    So, DC did all this for nothing, it seems. Why get rid of new52 Superman? There was no need. DC wanted us ALL to get into the new52 bandwagon, and some of us did. What for? To tell us "take a hike" 5 years later? Bullsh*t. They simply do not have the balls to stick to their own plans/ reinventions.

    Also, that interview was practically tailored for Jurgens.
    people invested 25 years just to get nothing on post crises superman, there was much more money and time invested for us.

    2 well many people reject this edgy superman, a good personality like captain america still work.
    3 and?
    4.new characters that people already forgot and doesn't care
    5. not suited to both characters and failed to create sale and good stories

  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lois View Post
    Do respect and understand the OP point of view.
    Don't agree with it however, but, I can understand how some of the Superman fans feel about this change.
    Some are pleased with it and some are not. And no, I don't speak for every Superman fan either.
    It's just the sense I get when reading the posts here in this thread.
    Felt the same way when the New52 came about. Didn't like the idea of it at all. But, I was willing to give the New52 comics a chance.
    Am open to new ideas about Superman. Over the years I've seen many a change regarding the Man of Steel.
    Am also willing to give Rebirth a chance and then decide whether or not I like it after I've read some of the comics.
    And in conclusion I'm hoping that DC will get a good balance where both fans of the New52 and the Pre-52 fans can have comics we all can enjoy reading.
    I hope you enjoy this as well. I may be annoyed with DC but I'm certainly not intending to trash on the readers who will end up enjoying this. That's why I'm trying to get this complaining out of the way now, lol. I'm not going to go trolling the discussion threads once the direction finally starts hitting the shelves. If I were to find myself wanting to do something like that I'd remove myself from the boards. That's not cool.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

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