The DC Universe needs two Batman's

[sluggo]

There are two sides to Batman that I've always had trouble reconciling.

On one hand is a regular human, "street level" hero who regularly fights the mob & his gallery of mainly regular human (though often insane) villains. He often has to take time to figure out what his current target is up too, where they are etc... (ie - the detective side of him). Then on the other hand he is an intergalatic warrior who has fought and defeated New Gods & aliens with the power of gods. He's fought an army of Doomsdays (next to Superman and Wonder Woman).If I was in charge, to reconcile these two sides of the character make each believable I'd split the character into two different characters.

I'd position Bruce Wayne (in the JLA and Batman comics) as the Batman who is a member of the JLA, who will safe guard the planet and galaxy against villains like Darkseid and Amazo. In his own book borrow more from the James Bond elements of character, with villains like Ra's al Ghul (and the league of Assassins, to which I put Bane and Damian but that's another discussion), Hugo Strange & Vandal Savage with global plans. Maybe some of his rogues like Mr Freeze, Black Mask and Anarky could be modified to fit these stories as well. This would be the home of "Bat-God" - Bruce's Batman is a regular human one capable of superhuman feats though his mind and tech, as such the threats he deals with very big in scale.

However this would league Gotham in need a Batman, this is where Dick Grayson comes in. Rather then having Dick off playing Batman-lite he takes over guarding Gotham city as Batman (I'd put these stories in Detective comics). Dick Grayson would be a more street level Batman, one we'd see challenged by the detective elements of his job, one who can engage multiple mob enforcers (something a "normal" human can't do) but its a bit of challenge. Along with the mobs he would face villains like Two-Face, Penguin, Scarcrow and Joker. Dick would be the more "human", street level Batman protecting a single city.

[steeplejack2112]

Nope. Tired of replacement/fill-in Batman.

[cxranger]

I really liked Thomas Wayne on E2 and would have liked him mentoring Grayson. Two Batmans would work well there.

I have always liked having variants of characters. We're smart; we can recognize that there are different versions.

[paulojrmam]

I don't see Batman as two entities at all. It's just that he is what the situation demands, he is flexible as a strategist.
But I like cxranger's idea. Earth-2 could be used for much more than it was on Nu52, there should've been several books taking place there, showing variants of characters and not just a fake JSA book.

[JBatmanFan05]

There are two sides to Batman that I've always had trouble reconciling.

You better find a way to reconcile, because it's not changing. Two Batmen at once isn't happening again anytime soon. You need to stop being a realism stickler. Batman has been a street level & intergalactic warrior forever now. It's comics.

If you're lucky, maybe someday DC will do the equivalent of a MAX line with a separate alt earth Batman that's all street. But that'd be a secondary Batman only. Main Batman would continue to do what he's always done.

[j9ac9k]

DC hasn't ever had a problem with using Batman in these two worlds. Part of what makes Batman interesting in the JLA is that he's a "regular" man and his street level career is partly what makes him grounded when walking among "gods."

Just look at it this way if it helps you -- when Batman is with the JLA, he's mostly fighting wars - there's no law or rules or implications for society - he just has to beat the bad guy. When he's in Gotham, it's a much more delicate endeavor because he's trying to uphold the spirit of the law while breaking it. He's fighting for society and sometimes fighting for the redemption of those he's fighting against, which requires a more nuanced hand and the mind of a detective/social worker moreso then the tactician/general that he is when taking on Despero or Darkseid. Wonder Woman and Superman also have that balancing act between warrior and savior to their personas, which is partly what bonds them as "The Trinity"... but I'm getting off-topic....

[sluggo]

You better find a way to reconcile, because it's not changing. Two Batmen at once isn't happening again anytime soon. You need to stop being a realism stickler. Batman has been a street level & intergalactic warrior forever now. It's comics.

If you're lucky, maybe someday DC will do the equivalent of a MAX line with a separate alt earth Batman that's all street. But that'd be a secondary Batman only. Main Batman would continue to do what he's always done.

I know its not changing, doesn't mean I have to like it or I have to pretend that it makes sense that a guy in an owl costume would poise any challenge to a man who has defeated Darkseid.

However everyone realizes that what I'm suggesting could also be done by having Nightwing take over protecting Gotham while Batman focused on the bigger problems (I wonder if that suggestion would have been recieved differently), I'd just rather Dick dress up as Batman instead of Batman-Lite.

[dan12456]

I'm not really interested in Dick just filling Batman's shoes. Especially with Batman's rogues gallery. He deserves his own world.
The Dickbat era was great because it feels like his birthright, but now that we've had that story it's time to move on to bigger and better things.

[JBatmanFan05]

or I have to pretend that it makes sense that a guy in an owl costume would poise any challenge to a man who has defeated Darkseid.

You're thinking about it too much then. You're probably one of these people that gripes about how Superman's secret ID with Lois, Perry, etc not knowing and all (before all this ID revealed storyline BS). And if you're not, I don't really understand why not. That's what realism sticklers sit around and complain about.

However everyone realizes that what I'm suggesting could also be done by having Nightwing take over protecting Gotham while Batman focused on the bigger problems (I wonder if that suggestion would have been recieved differently), I'd just rather Dick dress up as Batman instead of Batman-Lite.

It is more reasonable, but of course, as with many fan ideas, it has no practical chance in hell of happening for long because Bruce (yes, it does have to be Bruce) in Gotham vs the street and his rogues is the DC moneymaker. Batman's sales just jumped like 60% when Bruce came back...the movies and etc have made Bruce more and more indispensable in Gotham as a DC moneymaker.

[BruceWayneJr.]

There are two sides to Batman that I've always had trouble reconciling.

I'd position Bruce Wayne (in the JLA and Batman comics) as the Batman who is a member of the JLA

Dick Grayson would be a more street level Batman

I was just kicking this around in my brain the other day, and I think it's a great idea (Morrison's Batman Inc. scenario ended too soon*, as usual). But personally, I would flip it. People associate the franchise with Bruce Wayne. If Batman's "base" will continue to be Gotham, then keeping the traditional version of the character there makes sense. Dick Grayson already has extensive ties throughout the DC Universe, and he gets along with a fair amount of the characters. Expanding on his connections would create new story possibilities, and we could spend more time than we normally have with a different kind of Batman in the greater DCU.



*If it were up to me, Bruce as head of Batman Inc. and Dick and Tim (or even Damian) in charge of Gotham could have gone on for a few more years at least.

[sluggo]

You're thinking about it too much then. You're probably one of these people that gripes about how Superman's secret ID with Lois, Perry, etc not knowing and all (before all this ID revealed storyline BS). And if you're not, I don't really understand why not. That's what realism sticklers sit around and complain about.


It is more reasonable, but of course, as with many fan ideas, it has no practical chance in hell of happening for long because Bruce (yes, it does have to be Bruce) in Gotham vs the street and his rogues is the DC moneymaker. Batman's sales just jumped like 60% when Bruce came back...the movies and etc have made Bruce more and more indispensable in Gotham as a DC moneymaker.

Its not an issues of realism its an issues of consistency. In one issue Bruce Wayne is able to control a chair that makes him a god, in the next a crazy human present's a challenging fight for him.

I don't buy that the status quo is unchangeable.

[JBatmanFan05]

Its not an issues of realism its an issues of consistency. In one issue Bruce Wayne is able to control a chair that makes him a god, in the next a crazy human present's a challenging fight for him.

No, your consistency thing is just a mask for a realism issue IMHO (because it's inconsistent, it's not realistic). The way I would explain it away to myself is that busy guy Bruce "lowers his guard" a bit for Court of Owl guys, random ninjas, mobsters, and costumed rogues...that's why he can take some hits and losses before winning like he always does.

I don't buy that the status quo is unchangeable.

When you step outta your fan shoes and think like a suit about actual numbers, marketing, crosspromotion, name recognition, history, etc...you'll find it far more unchangeable than you now realize.

[sluggo]

No, your consistency thing is just a mask for a realism issue IMHO (because it's inconsistent, it's not realistic). The way I would explain it away to myself is that busy guy Bruce "lowers his guard" a bit for Court of Owl guys, random ninjas, mobsters, and costumed rogues...that's why he can take some hits and losses before winning like he always does.



When you step outta your fan shoes and think like a suit about actual numbers, marketing, crosspromotion, name recognition, history, etc...you'll find it far more unchangeable than you now realize.

So I tell you waht my issue is and you tell me I'm wrong? Ok.......

If I was concerned with realism I wouldn't read batman at all because even the "Dick Grayson" Batman I'm suggesting isn't realistic. Its consistency. I've just always had an issue seeing the same person be the only being to avoid the Omega Beams, but get shot by a nameless mob-enforcer. If you'd like to respond to my actual issue I'd be happy to have a conversation with you, if you want to pretend that my issue is realism (something you're clearly all geared up to defend/talk about) then there is no point in you and I continuing.

THe history of heroes like GL, FLash and Green ARrow disagree with you.

[paulojrmam]

I don't know why non-powered villains should be weaker than superpowered ones. They just pose a different threat, but they usually don't pose a lesser threat. Court of Owls had a lot of immortal ninjas, for example. When Batman is on the League, he is not alone, he's with superpowered friends, and he prepares better beforehand. Batman probably can't keep all his equipment with him all the time, so he has to decide what's best for each occasion. In Gotham he doesn't usually need to carry equipment to deal with gods, contrary to when he's with the League.

[sluggo]

I don't know why non-powered villains should be weaker than superpowered ones. They just pose a different threat, but they usually don't pose a lesser threat. Court of Owls had a lot of immortal ninjas, for example. When Batman is on the League, he is not alone, he's with superpowered friends, and he prepares better beforehand. Batman probably can't keep all his equipment with him all the time, so he has to decide what's best for each occasion. In Gotham he doesn't usually need to carry equipment to deal with gods, contrary to when he's with the League.

Its more a case of new gods or superman-level aliends/villains are stronger then Two-Face, Joker, and Owl or mobster #2. Its not that I have an issue with them having Bruce be "Bat-God", its then selling me a book were a guy with a knife is susposed to be a serious, credible threat to him, or an insane person with a gun is susposed realistically be a threat to him.

Its the same reason I don't want to see Davedevil fighting Thanos or frost giants in Marvel books. If Davedevil can beat Thanos, a Hand Ninja just isn't a threat or interesting to see him deal with.

I would find it completely reasonable, in universe, to have Bruce call up Dick and tell him - I'm dealing with Justice League issues and League of Assassin's world wide issues.....I simply don't have the time that Gotham demands of me right now (they could even lead up to this by having Two-Face or something do some extensive damage to the city (police HQ, Hospital etc... while Bruce of off-planet etc....). The world needs a Batman, and Gotham needs a Batman. The only answer is for both of us to be Batman.