Knightfall: Dated or a Bad Batman Arch?

[t hedge coke]

Man I miss those pre-internet days... I really do NOT believe that they planned on retiring Bruce. I believe it when they claimed the whole azbats concept was to make people APPRECIATE Bruce more and prepare for the epic return...


But I really loved the suspense and mystery of 'what are they going to do next' that we had before the internet and forums and trending...

Even with the internet, we don't know as much as we think we do, and we still get trolled hard by the authors sometimes. RIP was massive reader-trolling at the time. You had people swearing they'd never read another Batman comic ever if Alfred was the Black Glove, or if Bruce's father was a murderous super-criminal. Batman was "going to die" and people were mad about it, even though the first issue blatantly references him dying in the issue just before RIP (naturally, RIP comes after a death, not before). You still have people say that he died in RIP or in FC.

[dancj]

That's not really what I meant, but Dan Jurgens has ALWAYS been underrated to me. He was one of the best artists that DC---or any company---had in the 90's, IMO. The rest of the artists who worked on The Death/Return of Superman were pretty lackluster, though, IMO.

He's probably my least favourite of the artists in that storyline. Jon Bogdanove had a great Erik Larsen-esque energy about his work that I found quite infectious.

[ispacehead]

In Knightfall, you had a whole gaggle of villains loose in gotham at once... Batman systematically takes them out one by one reclaiming his city.


IN No Man's Land... A whole gaggle of Villains have carved up Gotham into different 'turfs'... Batman Systematically takes each turf back thus reclaiming his city...


It's the same 'gauntlet of rogues' concept. NML just expanded on it a lot more.

Simplifying to that degree, every Batman story is pretty much the same.

The nuances of the stories were quite different.

Knightfall took Bruce out of the equation to show why he's the only one that can do what he does. There was a central antagonist responsible for everything. The first part of the story was a grand send off to a legendary hero, and the second was about JPV's descent into madness and eventual downfall as Batman.

NML was chaos beyond the abilities of any person; a natural disaster that cut the city off from the rest of the world. The infrastructure collapsed and the city was seized by the criminals. Batman was never taken down a peg the way he was in Knightfall. There was no main antagonist to over come. It was about taking the city back one district at a time. The final arc with Joker killing Sarah Gordon was one of the most tragic and amazing moments in Batman history.

Both great, but totally different imo.

[Celgress]

I also loved the storyline. In fact it is still my favorite Batman story of all time for all the reasons others have already listed. In short it shows both why Bruce is Batman and that being Batman isn't just a role anyone with some muscles & training can step into.

[JAG2045]

While I like the arcs, for me the Bruce recovering stuff did drag, JPV went carazy waaay too fast, if he were that unstable, I can't see Bruce not seeing it, and the final battle when Bruce reclaims the mantle felt unsatisfying. I mean I understand the plan was in place for a Azrael spin off book so you couldn't damage him too much but a more pronounced fight between the bats would have been more enjoyable. The ending felt disappointing like Kill Bill 2. A buildup to meh.

I agree that JPV went crazy way to quickly - like the first issue after he gets the suit he starts pummeling a criminal nearly killing him and argues with Robin, I think a bit more of JPV doing a normal job before slowly losing his mind would have been better.

The other major issue is Nightwing and why Bruce doesnt contact him or Robin doesnt call for back up, they try and acknowledge this is Prodigal but its a very half-assed reason to keep Nightwing out of the story.

As for the final battle I thought it was great since Bruce outsmarts JPV, even at full strength he knows he cant win while JPV is in his battlesuit so he fights where he knows Valley will have to remove it, if Valley hadnt given up Bruce would have been able to take him after that

Honestly my biggest problem after the final fight is that Bruce & co just leave JPV to become a homeless vagrant and dont even try to help him undo his brain washing until the Azrael series starts a few months later!

[phantom1592]

I agree that JPV went crazy way to quickly - like the first issue after he gets the suit he starts pummeling a criminal nearly killing him and argues with Robin, I think a bit more of JPV doing a normal job before slowly losing his mind would have been better.

The other major issue is Nightwing and why Bruce doesnt contact him or Robin doesnt call for back up, they try and acknowledge this is Prodigal but its a very half-assed reason to keep Nightwing out of the story.

As for the final battle I thought it was great since Bruce outsmarts JPV, even at full strength he knows he cant win while JPV is in his battlesuit so he fights where he knows Valley will have to remove it, if Valley hadnt given up Bruce would have been able to take him after that

Honestly my biggest problem after the final fight is that Bruce & co just leave JPV to become a homeless vagrant and dont even try to help him undo his brain washing until the Azrael series starts a few months later!

One of the issues I had was too little exposition. It really wasn't a very self-contained story. JPV was a complete unknown to me and his mental health seemed to be the crux of the story. Bane was also completely unknown... but I think that was intentional. Even the fact that Bruce started the story broken, sick and traumatized before the breakout even happened felt weird to me. Bunch of stuff that had happened before that were critical to the story.

I didn't have a problem with JPV NOT being strong enough to be Batman 'right'. It showed how skilled bruce was to take people down without brutalizing them and gave JPV a 'Bruce made this look easy!' kind of feel. Him going crazy... I thought was always part of the character. Not a speedy decline, but just part of him.

Biggest problem I had, was Bruce getting well. Broken spines don't heal... They kept Oracle in the chair for years... but Bruce got better WAY to quickly. Downside... WITH him in the chair, and JPV in the suit... I was bored to tears. I still haven't read all of KnightQuest.

As for Nightwing? I actually REALLY liked the way they handled it. Bruce and Dick were not on good terms ANYWAY those years... Dick had become his own identity and outgrown the cave. Bruce was proud of the him being his own man.... and Dick didn't WANT to be Batman... though he would have if asked.

It was really well played as to why Dick wasn't involved in that segment... and why he stepped up anyway in the third part and prodigal.

I agree that the last issue was lackluster. something like 10 issues regaining his fighting skills... only to talk him out of his suit and let him walk away. I loved all the Shiva training stuff prior to it, but that last issue disappointed me. I REALLY wanted a bust out, drag out battle for the cowl.

[Clark_Kent]

If I recall, the training with Shiva wasn't just so he could beat JPV. Bruce had lost the muscle memory, and his honed instincts. Worst of all, he was scared. This is shown in his multiple attempts to leap off the building, throw a line, and swing to the other side. His final test was actually making that jump, leaving fear behind him.

Of course, he needed to take down JPV, but that wasn't his main reason for training. JPV didn't deserve the mantle, but Bruce wasn't sure he himself deserved it anymore either.

[phantom1592]

If I recall, the training with Shiva wasn't just so he could beat JPV. Bruce had lost the muscle memory, and his honed instincts. Worst of all, he was scared. This is shown in his multiple attempts to leap off the building, throw a line, and swing to the other side. His final test was actually making that jump, leaving fear behind him.

Of course, he needed to take down JPV, but that wasn't his main reason for training. JPV didn't deserve the mantle, but Bruce wasn't sure he himself deserved it anymore either.

I believe it was both. The training was definitely to get back what he lost, but the instigating factor was always to 'get it back from JPV.' I remember some comment about They needed to take the mantle away from him, and they KNEW he wouldn't just hand it over.

Especially since Bruce didn't WANT to be Batman anymore himself.. He was toying with the idea of retiring and letting JPV do the job until Robin broke the news of how crazy he was... and as soon as JPV was taken care of, he handed the costume to Dick and went off to decide what he wanted to do...

[t hedge coke]

If I recall, the training with Shiva wasn't just so he could beat JPV. Bruce had lost the muscle memory, and his honed instincts. Worst of all, he was scared. This is shown in his multiple attempts to leap off the building, throw a line, and swing to the other side. His final test was actually making that jump, leaving fear behind him.

The novel does that part a lot of service. O'Neil puts Bruce in a place where he's denying everything about himself, but acting out in ways that, even before Bane, weren't healthy. The time with Shiva is, in large part, getting him to admit a) he likes girls and that's okeh, they don't just have to be props, b) he likes hitting people, especially if they deserve it, c) he likes showing off, and that's alright as long as people come first, and d) it's okeh to be human and not even the best human at everything. Lots of sitting naked in the snow while Shiva gives him grief and then makes him tea and some fighting to get back muscle memory and get over his trauma-induced panics or flinching.

[Clark_Kent]

The novel does that part a lot of service. O'Neil puts Bruce in a place where he's denying everything about himself, but acting out in ways that, even before Bane, weren't healthy. The time with Shiva is, in large part, getting him to admit a) he likes girls and that's okeh, they don't just have to be props, b) he likes hitting people, especially if they deserve it, c) he likes showing off, and that's alright as long as people come first, and d) it's okeh to be human and not even the best human at everything. Lots of sitting naked in the snow while Shiva gives him grief and then makes him tea and some fighting to get back muscle memory and get over his trauma-induced panics or flinching.

Ah....I may have mistaken the novel for the comics with my post (it's been many years since I read either). I thought the comics had the emphasis, but you're right - most of the detailed stuff was in the novel.

[SicariiDC]

Ah....I may have mistaken the novel for the comics with my post (it's been many years since I read either). I thought the comics had the emphasis, but you're right - most of the detailed stuff was in the novel.

I've never read the novel, only the comics, but I absolutely understood that while, yes, his main reason for training with Shiva was physically, it helped him get his CONFIDENCE back

[t hedge coke]

Ah....I may have mistaken the novel for the comics with my post (it's been many years since I read either). I thought the comics had the emphasis, but you're right - most of the detailed stuff was in the novel.

I think it's probably mostly in the comics, too. It's just made a bigger deal of in the novel, while the comic, being superhero comics in the early 90s, needs to throw a series of escalating ninja threats at him, and give other such visual metaphors.