Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[Kirby101]

Yes, I agree.

If it does come to a second referendum..I would have to (effectively) to vote to revoke Article 50, and U.K. remain in EU.

It would be with a heavy heart...because I still think a competent exit...was in UK’s best long term interests.

But a competent exit isn’t “on offer”.

To bad that was never part of Brexit.

One of the things you would have to accept with leaving the EU, even in a competent way, would be you would lose Scotland and probably Northern Ireland.

[JackDaw]

To bad that was never part of Brexit.

One of the things you would have to accept with leaving the EU, even in a competent way, would be you would lose Scotland and probably Northern Ireland.

I’m not sure that would be the case.

And I’ve never been in the school of “the bigger the better”.

If people of Scotland and NI genuinely believe their best futures lie outside a United Kingdom, then I think they should have that option open to them.

Incidentally I believe my stance on that is more logically consistent than leaders and supporters of Scottish Independence Party...who vehemently argue case for exiting an older and closer union with the United Kingdom, while reacting with horror at idea of leaving the EU.

(Many of the arguments SNP leaders used in independence campaign were exactly the same in essence as Brexiteers used in EU referendum campaign.)

[jetengine]

I’m not sure that would be the case.

And I’ve never been in the school of “the bigger the better”.

If people of Scotland and NI genuinely believe their best futures lie outside a United Kingdom, then I think they should have that option open to them.

Incidentally I believe my stance on that is more logically consistent than leaders and supporters of Scottish Independence Party...who vehemently argue case for exiting an older and closer union with the United Kingdom, while reacting with horror at idea of leaving the EU.

(Many of the arguments SNP leaders used in independence campaign were exactly the same in essence as Brexiteers used in EU referendum campaign.)

We get it, you hate the SNP.

[Tendrin]

What we're seeing is that brexit really is just a white english nationalist project.

[jetengine]

What we're seeing is that brexit really is just a white english nationalist project.

The fact that it used the migration of arabic muslims as a weapon in its debating tactics as well as toxic focus on the EU as "The enemy" says it all really.

[DavidRA]

A Corbyn government (probably propped up by the Scottish 'Nationalists') will make 'no deal Brexit' look like a walk in the park on a warm summer day.

[jetengine]

A Corbyn government (probably propped up by the Scottish 'Nationalists') will make 'no deal Brexit' look like a walk in the park on a warm summer day.

Even as a guy who dislikes Corbyn I highly doubt that.

[Tendrin]

Even as a guy who dislikes Corbyn I highly doubt that.

Same, same. Also, nobody has the right to whine about a government propped up by 'Scottish nationalists' when May's majority required the DUP :P

[JackDaw]

We get it, you hate the SNP.

Not at all.

[JackDaw]

We get it, you hate the SNP.

Not at all.

Care to address the point I actually made? ( That SNP arguments put forward in their independence were effectively the same as the arguments they decry when made by Brexiteers in EU referendum.)

[JackDaw]

What we're seeing is that brexit really is just a white english nationalist project.

Scottish nationalism= good, must never be criticised

English nationalism...must effectively be racism (or are you pretending you didn’t mean that by the phrase “white English nationalist project”??)

Completely predictable...play the racism card, when you can’t think of a worthwhile argument..

[PwrdOn]

I’m not sure that would be the case.

And I’ve never been in the school of “the bigger the better”.

If people of Scotland and NI genuinely believe their best futures lie outside a United Kingdom, then I think they should have that option open to them.

Incidentally I believe my stance on that is more logically consistent than leaders and supporters of Scottish Independence Party...who vehemently argue case for exiting an older and closer union with the United Kingdom, while reacting with horror at idea of leaving the EU.

(Many of the arguments SNP leaders used in independence campaign were exactly the same in essence as Brexiteers used in EU referendum campaign.)

Even an independent Scotland would have to face the geopolitical reality that much of its economic and security concerns would be dictated by its relationship with England, and so it's reasonable that they would want to strengthen ties with Europe to counterbalance that influence. After all, this was largely what Scotland's foreign policy boiled down to when it was an independent kingdom, and while things have changed since then, this particular aspect really hasn't.

Also, while the arguments for the Scottish referendum might have been similar to those used for Brexit, they fit much better in context. While the EU is hardly an equal partnership, it also isn't a case of one central state dominating a bunch of peripheral satellite countries to such an extent that it might as well be synonymous with the union as a whole. For better or worse, that's exactly what the UK is and always has been. Besides, dozens of nations have broken away from the British Empire and thrived, and not a single one has begged to be let back in, whereas leaving the EU is an unprecedented step and we don't really have much evidence to go on to estimate the impact properly.

Scottish nationalism= good, must never be criticised

English nationalism...must effectively be racism (or are you pretending you didn’t mean that by the phrase “white English nationalist project”??)

Completely predictable...play the racism card, when you can’t think of a worthwhile argument..

Nationalism makes sense for peoples who happen to be in a position of weakness, since it makes sense to rally around a common cause to overcome a stronger opponent. But when the same attitudes are applied by people in a position of strength, then it's just being a dick and kicking the weak while they're down. That's why screaming white power is inherently racist and black power is not.

[JackDaw]

Also, while the arguments for the Scottish referendum might have been similar to those used for Brexit, they fit much better in context. While the EU is hardly an equal partnership, it also isn't a case of one central state dominating a bunch of peripheral satellite countries to such an extent that it might as well be synonymous with the union as a whole. For better or worse, that's exactly what the UK is and always has been. Besides, dozens of nations have broken away from the British Empire and thrived, and not a single one has begged to be let back in, whereas leaving the EU is an unprecedented step and we don't really have much evidence to go on to estimate the impact properly.



Nationalism makes sense for peoples who happen to be in a position of weakness, since it makes sense to rally around a common cause to overcome a stronger opponent. But when the same attitudes are applied by people in a position of strength, then it's just being a dick and kicking the weak while they're down. That's why screaming white power is inherently racist and black power is not.

But reality is in context of UK an individual Scot, Irish, Welsh or English person has (more or less) the same opportunities and rights.

I say more or less..because the reality is that individual Scots and Welsh get slightly better deals than individual English people (e.g. both Wales and Scotland have devolved National Assemblies where there is no English equivalent).

Scottish people are no more in a position of weakness than a Geordie, a Yorkie, or any of the other people living in regional England.

Would an American loving his own state and country immediately be seen as somehow suspect?

Loving one’s own country is surely admirable...as long as it doesn’t bring with it dislike of other countries.

I shouldn’t really need to say this..but I don’t dislike any nationality anywhere in the world.

But I do love England. And I do get very, very tired of different standards being applied to my country compared to many others.

[iron chimp]

If anything the creation of EU has had the effect of increasing nationalism across the continent because now territories that previously may have struggled to be financially viable on their own, see the EU as a potential way to prop them up and defend them.

EU was a massive empire builder itself hoovering up former soviet states believing russians would just lie down and let it happen which of course they have not.

Half these states in Eu were either military juntas or soviet vassels so we are not talking about mature democracies here and the UN has to police one border of the union

[Tendrin]

Scottish nationalism= good, must never be criticised

English nationalism...must effectively be racism (or are you pretending you didn’t mean that by the phrase “white English nationalist project”??)

Completely predictable...play the racism card, when you can’t think of a worthwhile argument..

Oh, please. Like Brexit wasn't driven by white, english nationalism. Not everyone who voted for Brexit was racist, but every racist voted for Brexit. What's /actually/ completely predictable is that a guy sympathetic to Brexit wouldn't be comfortable with that asscoation and would seek to dismiss it by deflecting to a point that was never made about never criticizing the SNP's ambitions for an independent Scotland.