Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[JackDaw]

Pretty laughable really.

They organized a vote without even the beginning of a plan about how to accomplish the result of the said vote.

What like Scottish Independence vote??

One of dangers of UK (and USA) style democracy is there can be a disconnect on massive issues between what electorate really want and the political manifesto of all the main parties. UK independence from EU is a notable example. But there are others such as appropriately controlled euthanasia...where there is very likely a large majority of UK population wanting it, but no main party will ever deliver it.

That's okay if you think the people running the main parties are wonderfully wise, and the people they represent are a bit thick, not intelligent enough to know what they want. I disagree with that...and think it's the antithesis of what democracy should be about..government of the people, by the people, for the people.

Appropriate use of referendums is actually potentially an exciting and useful way to extend and improve way democracy operates.

Obviously it needs more work..some groundwork on deciding what type of issues should be decided that way. And crucially..how once decision is made, finding an efficient and effective way to implement it. I think the main reason the aftermath has gone so badly is that the people implementing it, really, really were not committed to doing it well.

And incidentally..always a bit amused on American sites to see large majority always seems to think its a bad idea on come out. I think it was a reasonably close case either way. And put it this way, I've never seen any appetite in USA/ Canada/ Mexico to form a similar arrangement to EU. And plenty of countries world wide smaller than GB operate perfectly well as completely independent countries.

[PaulBullion]

What like Scottish Independence vote??

One of dangers of UK (and USA) style democracy is there can be a disconnect on massive issues between what electorate really want and the political manifesto of all the main parties. UK independence from EU is a notable example. But there are others such as appropriately controlled euthanasia...where there is very likely a large majority of UK population wanting it, but no main party will ever deliver it.

That's okay if you think the people running the main parties are wonderfully wise, and the people they represent are a bit thick, not intelligent enough to know what they want. I disagree with that...and think it's the antithesis of what democracy should be about..government of the people, by the people, for the people.

Appropriate use of referendums is actually potentially an exciting and useful way to extend and improve way democracy operates.

Obviously it needs more work..some groundwork on deciding what type of issues should be decided that way. And crucially..how once decision is made, finding an efficient and effective way to implement it. I think the main reason the aftermath has gone so badly is that the people implementing it, really, really were not committed to doing it well.

And incidentally..always a bit amused on American sites to see large majority always seems to think its a bad idea on come out. I think it was a reasonably close case either way. And put it this way, I've never seen any appetite in USA/ Canada/ Mexico to form a similar arrangement to EU. And plenty of countries world wide smaller than GB operate perfectly well as completely independent countries.

Knowing that you were an "Leave" voter means I will consider all your posts from now on from the expectation of you being completely wrong about everything.

[JackDaw]

Knowing that you were an "Leave" voter means I will consider all your posts from now on from the expectation of you being completely wrong about everything.

An easy remark to make...but can you tell me what parts you actually disagree with in my latest post, and why? How much do you really know about the issue that you have formed such a strong opinion on??

I think at some point our politicians need to deliver what people actually want. That is one reason why I quoted Scottish Independence referendum. If that vote had gone other way (it was very close) it would have been very difficult to implement. But I am utterly convinced UK government were right to organise that vote to allow Scots to decide their own fate, and Scotland would have a bright and vibrant future whichever way vote went. Contrast that with Spain's treatment of the Basque people...or the many EU nations that have no intention of ever allowing to citizens to express an opinion whether they want to remain in EU or not.

There's really nothing intrinsically "daft" about thinking a country as large and resourceful as GB can manage outside EU...a fair number of countries in Europe itself have decided to do just that by never applying for membership in first place. Nobody critisizes them for that stance.

In long term once we were out, we'd be pretty well off. But...of course..EU is making that as difficult as possible, to discourage further exits. (If, say 3 years ago, citizens of France, and Italy had been offered an equivalent vote, there's a fair chance they might have voted "out" too. That possibility is receding I imagine. The EU punishment beating is doing its job.) If you look at EU negotiation stance it has been consistently mean spirited. For example, UK made it clear months ago that any EU citizen staying in UK would have protected rights. That..months later..is not reciprocated. Similarly UK has offered to keep exchange of security details in place. Again not reciprocated.

[PaulBullion]

An easy remark to make...but can you tell me what parts you actually disagree with in my latest post, and why? How much do you really know about the issue that you have formed such a strong opinion on??

I think at some point our politicians need to deliver what people actually want. That is one reason why I quoted Scottish Independence referendum. If that vote had gone other way (it was very close) it would have been very difficult to implement. But I am utterly convinced UK government were right to organise that vote to allow Scots to decide their own fate, and Scotland would have a bright and vibrant future whichever way vote went. Contrast that with Spain's treatment of the Basque people...or the many EU nations that have no intention of ever allowing to citizens to express an opinion whether they want to remain in EU or not.

There's really nothing intrinsically "daft" about thinking a country as large and resourceful as GB can manage outside EU...a fair number of countries in Europe itself have decided to do just that by never applying for membership in first place. Nobody critisizes them for that stance.

In long term once we were out, we'd be pretty well off. But...of course..EU is making that as difficult as possible, to discourage further exits. (If, say 3 years ago, citizens of France, and Italy had been offered an equivalent vote, there's a fair chance they might have voted "out" too. That possibility is receding I imagine. The EU punishment beating is doing its job.) If you look at EU negotiation stance it has been consistently mean spirited. For example, UK made it clear months ago that any EU citizen staying in UK would have protected rights. That..months later..is not reciprocated. Similarly UK has offered to keep exchange of security details in place. Again not reciprocated.

Your claim that the UK had leverage is based on very faulty logic.
You compare the trade balance between the UK and Germany and the UK and France.

The UK did not decide to leave Germany. They did not decide to leave France. They decided to leave the EU, and was always clear that the EU would do nothing that would undermine the single market. Even if Germany and France are the two countries that will hurt more than the others from the UK leaving, they would hurt even more if Brexit was so easy and painless for the UK that other countries would follow suit. Germany is an export giant, and they made a **** ton of money from the single market.

In short, you're repeating lines you were fed by the Ukip idiots and whatever other liars and fools sold Brexit, but you do not know what you are talking about.

[JackDaw]

Your claim that the UK had leverage is based on very faulty logic.
You compare the trade balance between the UK and Germany and the UK and France.

The UK did not decide to leave Germany. They did not decide to leave France. They decided to leave the EU, and was always clear that the EU would do nothing that would undermine the single market. Even if Germany and France are the two countries that will hurt more than the others from the UK leaving, they would hurt even more if Brexit was so easy and painless for the UK that other countries would follow suit. Germany is an export giant, and they made a **** ton of money from the single market.

In short, you're repeating lines you were fed by the Ukip idiots and whatever other liars and fools sold Brexit, but you do not know what you are talking about.

But if we compare trade at EU level from/ to UK, EU exports more into UK than vice versa. The EU has in total more to lose than UK by making trade difficult. But as I've acknowledged already impact on UK will be greater in percentage terms because EU impact spread over more countries.

EU trades with plenty of countries outside EU under a number of different arrangements. No real difficulty to come up with an appropriate EU/UK arrangement if EU wants to. It appears to not want to, probably as you say because it is afraid of other defections. Can't think why that would be if the organisation is really so wonderful.

Another lever UK had at start of negotiations and just about threw away was issue of whether UK should pay various exit charges. There was no legal requirement to pay anything...but perhaps thinking EU would negotiate in good spirit we made significant concessions.

I see you ignore all the points made about democracy...would you care to address those?

[PaulBullion]

But if we compare trade at EU level from/ to UK, EU exports more into UK than vice versa.

Gee I wonder why that is.

Could it be that the EU economy is seven times the size of the UK economy?

[Kirby101]

Britain still needs goods from the EU.

The EU doesn't need British goods.

Some people will eventually realise Boris Johnson lied to them.

I was in Cornwall earlier this year. Cornwall voted to leave by a good margin. The thing is they benefit from EU trade probably as much or more than any district in England. They are now starting to see how badly losing that market will hurt the local economy.

[Starter Set]

Britain still needs goods from the EU.

The EU doesn't need British goods.

Some people will eventually realise Boris Johnson lied to them.

I was in Cornwall earlier this year. Cornwall voted to leave by a good margin. The thing is they benefit from EU trade probably as much or more than any district in England. They are now starting to see how badly losing that market will hurt the local economy.

That whole brexit thing reeks of cheap nationalism and populism. Simple fact is that being in the EU is a damn good deal. (as many, many Brits learn to understand)

And yes, you can negotiate all you want but the other countries from the EU are going to do all they can to make brexit a colossal pain in the ass for the Brits.

[JackDaw]

Gee I wonder why that is.

Could it be that the EU economy is seven times the size of the UK economy?

So? On its own U.K. is world’s sixth biggest economy. In long run, there’s no overwhelming reason why it’s not got a good economic future as a solo country.

I see you continue to ignore all the points about democracy.

And we haven’t started to discuss all the internal problems in the EU. The horrendous youth unemployment levels in Spain, Italy, Greece.

The terrible treatment handed out to Greece..a country so wrecked by its adoption of euro zone currency that it’s just about become a vassal state..it’s own desired fiscal plans over-ridden by EU in theory, in practice by Germany.

To widen debate out a bit. How far do people really want to push the “bigger is better” line?? Does anybody really want to see a world government? Or continental governments? Or USA merging with Mexico?

[Kirby101]

Strawman much?

[PaulBullion]

Seriously, is there any field where being number six is anything to be proud of?

[JackDaw]

Seriously, is there any field where being number six is anything to be proud of?

UK is more than big enough to be a perfectly valid solo country. If we’re having a debate in good spirit, is it really difficult to accept such basic facts and move on?

[Abe]

But if we compare trade at EU level from/ to UK, EU exports more into UK than vice versa. The EU has in total more to lose than UK by making trade difficult. But as I've acknowledged already impact on UK will be greater in percentage terms because EU impact spread over more countries.

EU trades with plenty of countries outside EU under a number of different arrangements. No real difficulty to come up with an appropriate EU/UK arrangement if EU wants to. It appears to not want to, probably as you say because it is afraid of other defections. Can't think why that would be if the organisation is really so wonderful.

Another lever UK had at start of negotiations and just about threw away was issue of whether UK should pay various exit charges. There was no legal requirement to pay anything...but perhaps thinking EU would negotiate in good spirit we made significant concessions.

I see you ignore all the points made about democracy...would you care to address those?

Are you serious?

[JackDaw]

Strawman much?

I don’t know is it?

Is it is, can you explain why?

[Abe]

Once more UK cannot have the good and not the obligations. The common market - which is one thing UK pushed for - cannot be sliced in parts just to please UK interests. It's not "à la carte". You can't have the milk, the butter, the money of the butter and the smile of the woman who sells it to you...