Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[PaulBullion]

I voted for Britain to leave the EU. Although the Tories have made a right hash of the negotiations, nothing has changed my mind and I do not regret voting to leave.

Just wait until you've spent a week eating spam.

[Abe]

[Kirby101]

Brexit is closer to reality than you would expect. No deal, no strings.

A no deal Brexit would be devastating for Britain.

[jetengine]

Yes, unfortunately people are either too stupid, ideologically blind or straight up insane to realise this.

[Abe]

Anyway, it's still a beautiful song, isn't it? (Sorry to quote myself... just don't want to let it disappears in the previous page after just one post).

And I'd like to add to the lyrics only "or not?...". Because it's a sad beautiful song.

(Posted "by the Seine" in the "long lonely shadow" of "Notre Dame" )

[mogwen]

I have a question forthose of you who voted Leave.
Had you no idea, Sony, Nissan, Dyson would leave too?
Dyson who campaigned for Leave and who now leaves for Singapoure who has a new trade deal with the EU!
Don't you feel betrayed?
Because that was the plan all along and I'm sorry for those who fell for it.

[jetengine]

This is what happens when you allow the public to be politically ignorant, dont kill lies in politics asap (within the first month post vote the whole damn thing should have been called off due to the amount of BS involved), have politicians so stupid and arrogant that they believe the public actually knows what's good for it and letting your news media be near monopolised by one ancient bastard with an axe to grind.

Oh and treating Farage seriously and not as a fucking joke.

[mogwen]

This is what happens when you allow the public to be politically ignorant, dont kill lies in politics asap (within the first month post vote the whole damn thing should have been called off due to the amount of BS involved), have politicians so stupid and arrogant that they believe the public actually knows what's good for it and letting your news media be near monopolised by one ancient bastard with an axe to grind.

Oh and treating Farage seriously and not as a fucking joke.

It looks like "Project Fear" has quickly turned into "Project Reality"!

I'm french and I really love the UK, been there plenty of times but only since the last 2 years have we been insulted in the streets for being "filthy europeans" or denied the right to speak french on phone!
This Brexit has brought the worst to the surface.

By the way, funny to see how some people who were very vocal about their support for Brexit have suddenly gone silent. I read the pages of this thread, and I must tell you my Brexiter friends, this is what you've been voting for.

[Kirby101]

It looks like "Project Fear" has quickly turned into "Project Reality"!

I'm french and I really love the UK, been there plenty of times but only since the last 2 years have we been insulted in the streets for being "filthy europeans" or denied the right to speak french on phone!
This Brexit has brought the worst to the surface.

By the way, funny to see how some people who were very vocal about their support for Brexit have suddenly gone silent. I read the pages of this thread, and I must tell you my Brexiter friends, this is what you've been voting for.

And when the sh*t hits the fan, they will blame Europe instead of seeing they brought this on themselves.
Seems the biggest problem now is the Irish Backstop, and there is no way the EU will allow an open border to remain in Ireland.

[mogwen]

And when the sh*t hits the fan, they will blame Europe instead of seeing they brought this on themselves.
Seems the biggest problem now is the Irish Backstop, and there is no way the EU will allow an open border to remain in Ireland.

No, they can't, not that they would or wouldn't like but they can't let it happen, it would kill the common market!
But it's always easier to blame someone else for your own mistakes.
I live in Brest, France, really close to britain. Can you imagine how interconnected our trade was, howmuch jobs we will lose because of this egoist move?
I could find solace in the fact that it will be worst for Uk, but what good would it do?

[Abe]

Actually the EU wants to keep the border between Eire and
Northern Ireland open because it's an essential part of the Good Friday agreement. EU will strongly support the peace process concerning one of its member - the Republic of Ireland...

[mogwen]

Actually the EU wants to keep the border between Eire and Ulster open because it's an essential part of the Good Friday agreement.

It's not a matter now of what the EU wants, just the fact that the british "negotiators" never had any kind of solution for the backstop. And EU can't take the risk of an uncontrolled border in Ireland.
It's the british decision to leave, but this decision is endangering the GFA.
What a mess!

[Coin Biter]

The irony concerning the Brexiter rebellion over May's Deal is that the backstop is only intended to come into play if no other satisfactory arrangement is made. May's deal was an attempt really to kick all major issues down the road. The DUP's opposition is honest enough: even the threat of the backstop compromises their idea of the essential integration of Northern Ireland with the rest of the UK. It has to be supposed that the ERG are refusing to compromise on it, though, simply because that is their best way of achieving "No Deal", which is what this odd collection of backbench fanatics truly seem to want.

Re the apportionment of blame, if "No Deal" comes to pass, and the negative consequences that most fear will come into play, the argument of the Brexiters will be:

1. We were betrayed by the secret Remainers in government, who wanted to keep us embedded within the EU. The plan of those dastardly members of the "elite" was to conclude a departure in name only; therefore they made no preparation was made for "No Deal". Davis, and Barclay, and Johnson may nominally have been part of government, however, the negotiations were controlled by the feeble May (and Oliver Robbins).

There is an element of truth in this, in that the EU has made lengthy preparations for No Deal, whereas until recently the UK government made very few preparations at all. This is actually something that was advocated for by Oliver Letwin, who voted for Remain, over two years ago. Quite why the Government, in its incompetence, did not prepare for the possibility is uncertain; however, those Brexiters in government did **** all about it either. So it's a shared incompetence, if you like.

It is also true that May and Robbins have conducted negotiations, but Davis and Johnson, the two leading advocates of Brexit in government, seemed to have been both lethargic and incompetent in their conduct of affairs. It's not the fault of Robbins, certainly, a professional diplomat. It is sadly true that May is a control freak who does not believe in openness in government; that I think everyone would acknowledge.

But May's negotiation has been compromised by her much-touted "red lines" which were settled on by reference, firstly, to the demands of the leading Brexiters, and secondly, by reference to her career obsession with immigration. Truthfully, in principle, May's approach has been as hardline as the most extreme Brexiter could want... except that no approach would ever have been hardline enough, and only a complete failure of negotiation would have been acceptable.

2. If "No Deal" were to lead to the consequences that everyone fears, it's because of Remoaners "talking down" the country.

This is a favourite argument of Brexiters - typically of course those who are either not in business or in a profession which is not likely to be directly affected, such as journalism. It ignores the fact that any prudent business needs to consider profitability - witness the relocation of Jacob Rees-Mogg's fund to Ireland, and Dyson's head office to Singapore.

3. The EU have been intransigent and treacherous in negotiations.

This is an attempt to explain the gulf between the Brexiter's fantasy of "easy negotiations/they have more to lose than we do" and the reality of the actual negotiations. The joke is of course that the EU have been absolutely consistent with what they stated from the outset.

The Brexiters will never admit culpability.

[mogwen]

The irony concerning the Brexiter rebellion over May's Deal is that the backstop is only intended to come into play if no other satisfactory arrangement is made. May's deal was an attempt really to kick all major issues down the road. The DUP's opposition is honest enough: even the threat of the backstop compromises their idea of the essential integration of Northern Ireland with the rest of the UK. It has to be supposed that the ERG are refusing to compromise on it, though, simply because that is their best way of achieving "No Deal", which is what this odd collection of backbench fanatics truly seem to want.

Re the apportionment of blame, if "No Deal" comes to pass, and the negative consequences that most fear will come into play, the argument of the Brexiters will be:

1. We were betrayed by the secret Remainers in government, who wanted to keep us embedded within the EU. The plan of those dastardly members of the "elite" was to conclude a departure in name only; therefore they made no preparation was made for "No Deal". Davis, and Barclay, and Johnson may nominally have been part of government, however, the negotiations were controlled by the feeble May (and Oliver Robbins).

There is an element of truth in this, in that the EU has made lengthy preparations for No Deal, whereas until recently the UK government made very few preparations at all. This is actually something that was advocated for by Oliver Letwin, who voted for Remain, over two years ago. Quite why the Government, in its incompetence, did not prepare for the possibility is uncertain; however, those Brexiters in government did **** all about it either. So it's a shared incompetence, if you like.

It is also true that May and Robbins have conducted negotiations, but Davis and Johnson, the two leading advocates of Brexit in government, seemed to have been both lethargic and incompetent in their conduct of affairs. It's not the fault of Robbins, certainly, a professional diplomat. It is sadly true that May is a control freak who does not believe in openness in government; that I think everyone would acknowledge.

But May's negotiation has been compromised by her much-touted "red lines" which were settled on by reference, firstly, to the demands of the leading Brexiters, and secondly, by reference to her career obsession with immigration. Truthfully, in principle, May's approach has been as hardline as the most extreme Brexiter could want... except that no approach would ever have been hardline enough, and only a complete failure of negotiation would have been acceptable.

2. If "No Deal" were to lead to the consequences that everyone fears, it's because of Remoaners "talking down" the country.

This is a favourite argument of Brexiters - typically of course those who are either not in business or in a profession which is not likely to be directly affected, such as journalism. It ignores the fact that any prudent business needs to consider profitability - witness the relocation of Jacob Rees-Mogg's fund to Ireland, and Dyson's head office to Singapore.

3. The EU have been intransigent and treacherous in negotiations.

This is an attempt to explain the gulf between the Brexiter's fantasy of "easy negotiations/they have more to lose than we do" and the reality of the actual negotiations. The joke is of course that the EU have been absolutely consistent with what they stated from the outset.

The Brexiters will never admit culpability.

Of course, Brexit was a war against facts!
I heard someone the other day on the radio saying to another one: "Your facts are contradicted by my opinion".
When you hear that, you know we're doomed.

[Starter Set]

The EU is in no mood for a new deal anyway. Negotiations have taken months and no one in the continent wants to do all that **** again.

So, i don't know, either Britain manages to gain some more time (not sure what good it will do as no new deal is going to be discussed) or then, yeah, no deal.

To be honest i'm kinda amazed that some pretty key points haven't been more discussed BEFORE the whole process was started. Like, for example, Britain is importing half of its food from the continent. Most of it through Calais, France.

Soon, once the border is back, that's going to be a huge freaking mess to deal with all that fret. (thanks to customs and ****) And yeah, prices on those products are of course going to be on the rise.