Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[Kirby101]

I don’t know is it?

Is it is, can you explain why?

We are debating UK leaving a functioning EU that benefited their Economy.

You are bringing up a One World Bogeyman or the silly notion of the US and Mexico combining. Something that sounds like Trumpster parinoia.

That is why it was a straw man. Britain will suvive Brexit. They just won't be as well off as if they stayed.

[JackDaw]

Are you serious?

Yes. That was the factual position. You can research the thing yourself by google...obviously no one will believe me, because I am putting an unpopular viewpoint.

You have to remember that the rules and regulations concerning exit were practically non existent, because few believed a member state would want to leave. Basically the rule book said member state served a notice under Article 50 that it wanted to leave, then had 2 years to negotiate exit terms then leave.

At time top level legal advice was sought on whether there were specific requirements to pay various exit costs (e.g. share of future pensions for EU officials, future spend already committed in present budget round, etc). Most legal advice was that U.K. had no legal responsibility for any exit costs.

Our negotiators took line there was a moral responsibilty to pay some costs and negotiated accordingly. To be fair, even now which costs will be paid depend on whether U.K. exit with or without a deal.

(Incidentally I believe there is still uncertainty what would happen if U.K. at end of negotiations decided exit terms were so unattractive that it was better to stay in. Can the Article 50 notice just be rescinded? If so, does U.K. just stay in as if nothing happened? I think Scottish government is lodging a case with European Court to clarify this.)

[JackDaw]

We are debating UK leaving a functioning EU that benefited their Economy.

You are bringing up a One World Bogeyman or the silly notion of the US and Mexico combining. Something that sounds like Trumpster parinoia.

That is why it was a straw man. Britain will suvive Brexit. They just won't be as well off as if they stayed.

I was genuinely interested why people regard it as obvious nonsense to have a one world government or a continental government..but on other hand regard a unit as big as EU as obviously good.

I see all the discussion is centred on trade benefits/ disbenefits...but does anybody really believe it is just a pure trading zone? Or that it doesn’t have ambitions to have “closer and closer union”.

One thing that the difficulty of coming out has illustrated is just how deeply the institution has already effected a multitude of activity other than trade.

[Starter Set]

I was genuinely interested why people regard it as obvious nonsense to have a one world government or a continental government..but on other hand regard a unit as big as EU as obviously good

"As big"? In terms of population Europe, all countries, is barely half of China or India. And in size it's not even one third of Russia.

Even military speaking, it's just a mutual defense pact. There is no European army.

So yeah, you can calm your conquest of the world fears.

[Abe]

Yes. That was the factual position. You can research the thing yourself by google...obviously no one will believe me, because I am putting an unpopular viewpoint.

You have to remember that the rules and regulations concerning exit were practically non existent, because few believed a member state would want to leave. Basically the rule book said member state served a notice under Article 50 that it wanted to leave, then had 2 years to negotiate exit terms then leave.

At time top level legal advice was sought on whether there were specific requirements to pay various exit costs (e.g. share of future pensions for EU officials, future spend already committed in present budget round, etc). Most legal advice was that U.K. had no legal responsibility for any exit costs.

Our negotiators took line there was a moral responsibilty to pay some costs and negotiated accordingly. To be fair, even now which costs will be paid depend on whether U.K. exit with or without a deal.

So no payment for the engagements made by the UK for the pluriannual EU budget? IIRC that's the reason for the so-called divorce bill. And it has nothing to do with the question of an exit with or without a deal imho.

[Kirby101]

I was genuinely interested why people regard it as obvious nonsense to have a one world government or a continental government..but on other hand regard a unit as big as EU as obviously good.

I see all the discussion is centred on trade benefits/ disbenefits...but does anybody really believe it is just a pure trading zone? Or that it doesn’t have ambitions to have “closer and closer union”.

One thing that the difficulty of coming out has illustrated is just how deeply the institution has already effected a multitude of activity other than trade.

Because it is an Economic Union and all the countries have their own governments. Also Britain got the most favorable deal in the EU, keeping their own currency. If you voted for Brexit out of fear for a one world government, you were foolish.

We know why Brexit won, and that xenophobia will hurt Britain badly.

Tell us how the EU has adversely effected Europe with all these activities.

[JackDaw]

"As big"? In terms of population Europe, all countries, is barely half of China or India. And in size it's not even one third of Russia.

Even military speaking, it's just a mutual defense pact. There is no European army.

So yeah, you can calm your conquest of the world fears.

I haven’t got any fears for world conquest!

And presently the mutual defence pact arrangements are covered by NATO, not EU.

But yes, idea of an EU army has been considered a few time, with some influential EU members being generally in favour of it. To be fair it’s an idea that is not obviously good or bad...it does have some attraction.

[Starter Set]

And presently the mutual defence pact arrangements are covered by NATO, not EU

Actually no, Nato is certainly not the only defense pact there is between European countries.

[Carabas]

Seriously, is there any field where being number six is anything to be proud of?

British cult television shows.

[Kirby101]

British cult television shows.

Who is number 2?

[JackDaw]

Who is number 2?

Not me. “I am a free man”

[JackDaw]

I

Because it is an Economic Union and all the countries have their own governments. Also Britain got the most favorable deal in the EU, keeping their own currency. If you voted for Brexit out of fear for a one world government, you were foolish.

We know why Brexit won, and that xenophobia will hurt Britain badly.

Tell us how the EU has adversely effected Europe with all these activities.

I must be putting point about world government badly..if you think I considered it a serious possibility. I was making point that most people regard that as obviously too big/ unwieldy, but give EU a thumbs up...but that to me seems a massive unit, perhaps too big.

That size wouldn’t matter..really..if EU was just about trade. Deep down I believe it is about much more than trade.

Having seen how EU had treated Italy and Greece in recent past...where effectively the country’s own choice of leader had (in times of economic turmoil) been replaced by some one of EU’s choice I have no faith in EU’s commitment to democracy.

I do not believe EU was a static organisation, committed to free trade and nothing else. There is on surface a majority of states within it, and the EU bureaucracy itself committed to extended union to things like common army, common currency, etc... to become more federalised.

There was..of course..possibility of staying in and resisting that drift. But I don’t think that would have been successful. It was that drift to federalism that worried me.

[JackDaw]

Actually no, Nato is certainly not the only defense pact there is between European countries.

True, I was looking at it purely from U.K. point of view, we declined to join 2017 EU pact. I would guess purely on pragmatic grounds that exit vote had already gone through.

[PaulBullion]

you were foolish.

ding ding ding

[DavidRA]

I voted for Britain to leave the EU. Although the Tories have made a right hash of the negotiations, nothing has changed my mind and I do not regret voting to leave.