Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[DebkoX]

The EU will not allow an open border at Ireland and the UK cannot have a hard border between them and N.I. I expect an Irish re-unification if Brexit goes through. Sometime after Scotland leaves the UK.

I feel like an Irish reunification may happen in my lifetime. I also believe that Scoxit [kidding] will happen also.

[Tendrin]

https://twitter.com/dakami/status/1111797861761449986

Best Brexit guide ever.

[jetengine]

As of today, UK Parliament still has not agreed to vote on a Brexit deal. In fact, Parliament has rejected it three or four times.

Shame on Parliament, the people of Great Britain voted to exit from the EU. Parliament has a responsibility to carry out the will of the people. Parliament is acting just like the EU does. Has the will of the people been lost in Great Britain?

When the people vote to blow the economies brains out and kill people through shortages then yes, we can ignore the will of the people.

[dancj]

As of today, UK Parliament still has not agreed to vote on a Brexit deal. In fact, Parliament has rejected it three or four times.

Shame on Parliament, the people of Great Britain voted to exit from the EU. Parliament has a responsibility to carry out the will of the people. Parliament is acting just like the EU does. Has the will of the people been lost in Great Britain?

The tiny majority who voted to leave were all voting for different things.

Some wanted hard Brexit, some wanted a soft one which regained a bit of our sovereignty, some wanted fewer foreigners in the country, some didn't really want or expect the Leave vote to win, but wanted to send a message that they were unhappy.

It's not a simple matter for Parliament to somehow do all of these things at once. The only sensible thing to do is work out what Brexit actually looks like (still not done) and then make sure that's what we really want.

[Kirby101]

As of today, UK Parliament still has not agreed to vote on a Brexit deal. In fact, Parliament has rejected it three or four times.

Shame on Parliament, the people of Great Britain voted to exit from the EU. Parliament has a responsibility to carry out the will of the people. Parliament is acting just like the EU does. Has the will of the people been lost in Great Britain?

Can't the people change their minds if they see they made a mistake? Polls now show the majority do not want Brexit. Surely now is the time to end this, before they go through with it. The Government could call for another referendum.

[Coin Biter]

As of today, UK Parliament still has not agreed to vote on a Brexit deal. In fact, Parliament has rejected it three or four times.

Shame on Parliament, the people of Great Britain voted to exit from the EU. Parliament has a responsibility to carry out the will of the people. Parliament is acting just like the EU does. Has the will of the people been lost in Great Britain?

It's a matter of Parliamentary arithmetic. The great majority of Parliament want to deliver Brexit and actually agree with you, however, only a minority wish to do so on May's terms.

What the government should have done post the 2016 Referendum result is set out the main models on which people want to leave the EU, and either try and reach a cross-party consensus, or subject it to a public vote. Once clarity had been reached then negotiation with the EU could have been started, and following an agreement that is passed in Parliament, Article 50 have been triggered.

Instead May actually did what Jacob Rees-Mogg and Jeremy Corbyn and almost every other politician did - she took the 2016 Referendum result and decided that the people had gone on the basis of her particular obsessions, which in her political career have most notably focused on immigration. She then triggered Article 50, imposing a deadline, and massively reducing her bargaining power. I'm not criticising her too much - almost all of the House of Commons voted with her at that time. But that's what she did, and Corbyn didn't oppose her at the time, although he is (rightly) arguing for a second vote now.

Corbyn is arguing for a customs union Brexit, as he has every right to do, and that view might be more popular with the House - we shall perhaps see today. The ERG are arguing leave voters voted that we should leave without a deal, that people knew this in 2016, and no deal is the only true way to deliver Brexit... but only a minority MPs agree with them, and that's certainly not what the Leave campaign said in 2016. Not to mention that had we left on Friday without May's deal, we would have had a hard border in Northern Ireland.

We need public sign off on a deal. What should it matter if we left on Friday, or if we leave in April, or if we leave in May, or if we leave in a year's time, as long as we leave on a basis which has some public consent, and under which we respect our international obligations?

Now I would prefer not to leave at all, but I can await a public vote on the nature of the deal. That's the key element that this process has lacked so far. The 2016 Referendum did not grant a blank cheque to any politician to leave on any basis that they wanted, without accountability and without debate. It's Cameron's fault that it didn't - OK.

But let's not ask Parliament to continue to compound that now.

[Coin Biter]

The tiny majority who voted to leave were all voting for different things.

Some wanted hard Brexit, some wanted a soft one which regained a bit of our sovereignty, some wanted fewer foreigners in the country, some didn't really want or expect the Leave vote to win, but wanted to send a message that they were unhappy.

It's not a simple matter for Parliament to somehow do all of these things at once. The only sensible thing to do is work out what Brexit actually looks like (still not done) and then make sure that's what we really want.

Couldn't agree more. And I'd agree even if the public voted for no deal, although I'm not sure that could be on any referendum that is ordered, if the result would be a breach of our international obligations.

[PwrdOn]

Can't the people change their minds if they see they made a mistake? Polls now show the majority do not want Brexit. Surely now is the time to end this, before they go through with it. The Government could call for another referendum.

The damage has already been done, trying to sneak back into the EU this way would not only leave lots of mistrust on both sides but also open the door for endless rounds of conspiracy theories by the Leave side. They have to deal with the consequences of their choices, or else they will never learn their lesson.

[Coin Biter]

The damage has already been done, trying to sneak back into the EU this way would not only leave lots of mistrust on both sides but also open the door for endless rounds of conspiracy theories by the Leave side. They have to deal with the consequences of their choices, or else they will never learn their lesson.

While there's truth in this, the Leave side (or at least the Leave side as represented by the ERG, by UKIP, by in all likelihood the majority of Conservative party members, and by international promoters and backers) are currently arguing that only leaving without a deal at all delivers "true" Brexit, and any other form of Brexit represents a betrayal of the 2016 Referendum. The amount of people subscribing to this view would I suspect be likely to grow on a departure on negotiated terms.

Conspiracy theories will persist anyway. The well is poisoned beyond hope.

[jetengine]

Leave are the ones making the damn conspiracy theories anyway.

[PaulBullion]

As of today, UK Parliament still has not agreed to vote on a Brexit deal. In fact, Parliament has rejected it three or four times.

Shame on Parliament, the people of Great Britain voted to exit from the EU. Parliament has a responsibility to carry out the will of the people. Parliament is acting just like the EU does. Has the will of the people been lost in Great Britain?

The referendum was actually not legally binding, so parliament has no legal responsibility to commit national suicide by brexiting.

[PaulBullion]

Leave are the ones making the damn conspiracy theories anyway.

"leaves" and "remains" sounds so plebeian. Can't they name the two sides after something more colorful like, I dunno, roses or something?

[Starter Set]

Man, that Brexit business is like watching a movie with Rob Schneider, you're not sure if you're supposed to cry or laugh.

[JackDaw]

The referendum was actually not legally binding, so parliament has no legal responsibility to commit national suicide by brexiting.

Lol.

Surely to goodness part of you realises statements like that are a massive exaggeration and over-simplification.

As a stand alone country UK has one of biggest economies in world, a skilled and flexible set of people...all the ingredients for a reasonably successful future.

One thing that always baffles me on these boards is the large number of people who consistently see complex political issues as totally black and white...one side as completely "good", the other side as completely "bad".

[JackDaw]

While there's truth in this, the Leave side (or at least the Leave side as represented by the ERG, by UKIP, by in all likelihood the majority of Conservative party members, and by international promoters and backers) are currently arguing that only leaving without a deal at all delivers "true" Brexit, and any other form of Brexit represents a betrayal of the 2016 Referendum. The amount of people subscribing to this view would I suspect be likely to grow on a departure on negotiated terms.

Conspiracy theories will persist anyway. The well is poisoned beyond hope.

As so often CB, I am impressed with way you put over your views..while disagreeing with a fair number of your overall conclusions.

One issue we may agree on (??) is that I regard the ERG wing of the Conservative party as having become totally deranged in their pursuit of a "no deal Brexit".

In reality Mrs May's deal potentially delivers so many of their original requirements (notably ability to strike separate trade deals, taking UK irrevocably out of a EU that will become increasingly federalised, overall control of immigration, etc) ......that you wonder how any sane ERG member can refuse to support it.

What some see as the downsides (paying EU reasonable exit fees, guarantee-ing reasonable rights to EU citizens already here)...I actually see as good elements of the deal. Exit..if it happens..should be on amicable terms, to optimise best chances of a positive future relationship.