Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[Kieran_Frost]

May will never trigger an early election while Corbyn is still in charge of Labour. More people still hate and despise the Conservatives than support them and Corbyn is a walking protest vote in a country that is seriously pissed at its political class right now and doesn't care about shooting itself in the foot.

If this was actually true they wouldn't have won the election You need to stop letting your dislike of the Tories cloud the reality of situations.

[Brigonos Chomhgaill]

The Conservatives got 32 percent of the vote from a 66 percent turnout of the eligible voter base - that's the support of less than a quarter of the population of a nation which is effectively a two-party state. They won by such a small majority that their flagship policies such as tax cuts and welfare reform never managed to pass Parliament, having been blocked by a party everyone - even that party's own supporters - agrees is a shambling clusterfuck led by a communist.

What history has taught us time and again is that the Tories' support is small but consolidated, while the British left is large but scattered - when either of those variables changes, the Conservatives lose elections.

[Kieran_Frost]

The Conservatives got 32 percent of the vote from a 66 percent turnout of the eligible voter base - that's the support of less than a quarter of the population of a nation which is effectively a two-party state. They won by such a small majority that their flagship policies such as tax cuts and welfare reform never managed to pass Parliament, having been blocked by a party everyone - even that party's own supporters - agrees is a shambling clusterfuck led by a communist.

What history has taught us time and again is that the Tories' support is small but consolidated, while the British left is large but scattered - when either of those variables changes, the Conservatives lose elections.

Based on the British system they won the majority of those who voted.The political opinions of people who didn't bother to vote (and you have no hard data to prove that is EVERYONE was forced to vote, the Tories wouldn't have got over 51%) is irrelevant. They win the majority of the votes of the people who count in these discussions (the ones who bothered to go their civic duty).

Again, let's not overlook the obvious because we're blinded by rage Not all Tories are evil, and discounting any win over a myth is silly. And dangerous. You can't bring change if you won't acknowledge the facts

[jeanvaljean]

Based on the British system they won the majority of those who voted.The political opinions of people who didn't bother to vote (and you have no hard data to prove that is EVERYONE was forced to vote, the Tories wouldn't have got over 51%) is irrelevant. They win the majority of the votes of the people who count in these discussions (the ones who bothered to go their civic duty).

Again, let's not overlook the obvious because we're blinded by rage Not all Tories are evil, and discounting any win over a myth is silly. And dangerous. You can't bring change if you won't acknowledge the facts

You're a bigger man than me for forgiving the Tories Section 28, I guess. Or maybe you're just younger and didn't have friends live through those years.

[Brigonos Chomhgaill]

Maggie's in Hell now. That has to be of some comfort?

discounting any win over a myth is silly.

I agree, so it's a good thing I didn't discount it but only examined how it happened so as to better speculate how the next election might pan out.
Anyway, I didn't say all Tories are evil, that's some strange Freudian slip on your part.

[GigiFusc]

Based on the British system they won the majority of those who voted.The political opinions of people who didn't bother to vote (and you have no hard data to prove that is EVERYONE was forced to vote, the Tories wouldn't have got over 51%) is irrelevant. They win the majority of the votes of the people who count in these discussions (the ones who bothered to go their civic duty).

Again, let's not overlook the obvious because we're blinded by rage Not all Tories are evil, and discounting any win over a myth is silly. And dangerous. You can't bring change if you won't acknowledge the facts

That sentence is just so offensive on so many levels. It makes me assume that you are either from a middle class background or you have little to no understanding or empathy for millions of people who refuse to vote not from lack of care for their 'civic duty' but because they have no one to vote for.

Oh let me guess your retort 'well, if you don't vote you don't have a say'. Yes, yes that well worn out and pathetic rethoric created by political spin doctors to give their sleepy follower army a stick to beat people over the head with.

I and millions like me refuse to vote in a general election. Not because of apathy. Not because we're lazy. Not because we're not engaged. But because we literally have no one to vote for in a false democracy that will only ever biase against us.

Why do you think so many people voted in the referendum? Because they weren't voting for a leader or a party they had no faith in. We were being asked a direct question that had very real consequences on all our futures.

Our answer was 'fuck you. You've destroyed our lives by keeping us down. Well now we've just fucked your lives too. And hey, for the first time ever, we're all in this together!'

[GigiFusc]

Not exactly 100% scientific on my part, but if you look at the chart on the BBC website showing the voting percentages in the 2015 election:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

You have to remove UKIP I think from the tally because in the last election both Conservative and socialists voted for them off the back of an anti immigration policy (sorry world, we have our fair share of racist twats).

The rest of the votes were shared between one Conservative party and FOUR socialist ones.

The fact is, as was explained above, the Tories do not get in because they are the most popular party - they get in because the socialist vote is hugely split whilst the Tory vote is heavily consolidated.

There's obviously a lot more to it than that but in general, the point is well made.

As a trend, you would think that it would continue that way for the section of the country that refuse to vote. Research suggests that conservatives vote whilst people with left leaning political views don't vote because they don't believe in the system ( I myself being a perfect example - if Labour returns to its socialist roots with Corbyn as leader, I will vote for them - the first time I'll vote in a gen elect in my 46 years.)

[Brigonos Chomhgaill]

This is the Tories' problem in a nutshell: because it's essentially a two-party system, Labour have never had to be organised or even electable, they just had to seem like a lesser evil than voting for the Tories. (Not that I think Tories are evil, I'm just going by what KF said.)
Now add Corbyn to the mix and you have a genuine wildcard, because voting for him isn't just a big Fuck You to the Tories, it's a big Fuck You to New Labour as well, which for most on the left is a wet dream because lefties hate New Labour probably even more than they hate the Tories. A vote for Corbyn is even a Fuck You to the British press, and not just Rupert Murdoch, but also to the diet liberals of the Guardian as well. A vote for Corbyn is basically a guaranteed way to piss off the people that the British left hate and despise, and May knows it. She'll never call a snap election, she'll ride out her four years and cross her fingers that Corbyn isn't there by 2020.

[Brigonos Chomhgaill]

Good news, everyone: our new Prime Minister has delivered a united Ireland, and you mainland Johnnies are footing the bill!
Us Norn Iron alcoholics will get the best of both worlds - EU citizenship and protections, and we don't have to be run by those pigshit-thick gangsters and child molesters in the South. I have literally no idea what mainland Britain gets out of this.

[GigiFusc]

So two days before the ref she said there would have to be border control of some sort. Now she's saying there won't be anything. If that doesn't sum up the political class using the very Prime Minister as an example, I don't know what does.

Personally, however, doesn't bother me. NI and ROI are a special case as far I'm concerned.

[L.R Johansson]

Wether you want to call it far left or as Brigonos calls it, old school left, it's basically the same...
A Britain under Corbyn would not be a good place, personally I believe it would be like going back to the late 70's after Wilson resigned and Callaghan took over and there were strikes everywhere and the unions played a big part in certain industries in the UK being closing.
Labour are losing a lot of support these days in their traditional heartlands of Wales and Scotland and they need someone with fresh ideas rather than Corbyn who thinks 1970's ideas will work today.

An interesting view - because the mentality of the people, the cultural differences actually makes a difference here.

The 1970's was one of the most tumultuous left-leaning times in Swedish history - but it was also, without any doubt, one of our most prosperous times - I think we might have been #1 in the U.N and various authoritative organs back then.

Sweden is obviously different from the UK though, we are not a coalition of various nation-states under one specific ruler - a United Kingdom.

I can't say that a harder-line left (I honestly don't think Corbyn is as left as you think - he seems more like our own current Prime Minister, which is decidedly more right than 1970's legendary Swedish Premiere, Olof Palme.) won't be a negative force in British development, but I do know that in other places, such a change in policies has not lead to poverty and a lack of freedom - us Swedes are still some of the free-est people in the world, and was still considered as such back in the 1970's.


Goes to show you how much of a difference a culture does - for instance, I believe firmly that a societal system such as that of Swiss, which is decidedly market-liberal-social-conservative, would never work in Sweden.

That doesn't mean I am blind to the INCREDIBLE achievements of Swiss! They're highly impressive.

It just means that we are different, as a people.


What would you say that it is in the very spirit of Britishness, the very cultural core of the UK, that could lead to problems if there was a Socialist government in the UK?

Btw, I would say this is definitely more proof that the Scottish are a highly distinct and different Nation, with a different culture than those of you who are English - they have traditionally kept some form of Socialist government in ruling position on their end - and there is apparently some interest in the unique "Scandinavian Model" of societal engineering. This, to me, implies that they think differently, they have a different history than you who are English.

What do you make of that, btw? Am I correct in my assessment, or am I missing the bigger picture?

[GigiFusc]

An interesting view - because the mentality of the people, the cultural differences actually makes a difference here.

The 1970's was one of the most tumultuous left-leaning times in Swedish history - but it was also, without any doubt, one of our most prosperous times - I think we might have been #1 in the U.N and various authoritative organs back then.

Sweden is obviously different from the UK though, we are not a coalition of various nation-states under one specific ruler - a United Kingdom.

I can't say that a harder-line left (I honestly don't think Corbyn is as left as you think - he seems more like our own current Prime Minister, which is decidedly more right than 1970's legendary Swedish Premiere, Olof Palme.) won't be a negative force in British development, but I do know that in other places, such a change in policies has not lead to poverty and a lack of freedom - us Swedes are still some of the free-est people in the world, and was still considered as such back in the 1970's.


Goes to show you how much of a difference a culture does - for instance, I believe firmly that a societal system such as that of Swiss, which is decidedly market-liberal-social-conservative, would never work in Sweden.

That doesn't mean I am blind to the INCREDIBLE achievements of Swiss! They're highly impressive.

It just means that we are different, as a people.


What would you say that it is in the very spirit of Britishness, the very cultural core of the UK, that could lead to problems if there was a Socialist government in the UK?

Btw, I would say this is definitely more proof that the Scottish are a highly distinct and different Nation, with a different culture than those of you who are English - they have traditionally kept some form of Socialist government in ruling position on their end - and there is apparently some interest in the unique "Scandinavian Model" of societal engineering. This, to me, implies that they think differently, they have a different history than you who are English.

What do you make of that, btw? Am I correct in my assessment, or am I missing the bigger picture?

I think you've hit the nail on the head with your assessments.

Scotland has such a different history to England which has led to a very different attitude and mood in the two countrys. England has been ruled for such a long time by the elite ruling class which indoctrinates its children and adults alike for one main purpose - to use us as they see fit.

Having suffered as a nation across the years as a less powerful country forever in the shadow of their bigger brother, Scots have a much higher level of understanding of the true political difference between Conservativism and socialism. For heavens sake, we're still equally divided here in England about the royal family! Why would anyone want to be a subject of a monarch?? In Scotland, I think they see the Queen as much more of an English thing. She doesn't have much to do with Scotland other than she likes to live on her HUGE state up there in Balmoral because she gets a bit of privacy and fresh air.

I look at Swedish politics with envy. From what I understand, the levels of corruption at the highest levels are lower and the agenda is much more driven by the concept of 'treat our people well'. In the UK, that doesn't exist as a political agenda.

[dancj]

Based on the British system they won the majority of those who voted.

32% of voters voted for them. 68% voted for someone else. That's not a majority in any sensible definition of the word.

The problem is we have a crappy two-party system which does treat 32% as a majority.

[dancj]

I and millions like me refuse to vote in a general election. Not because of apathy. Not because we're lazy. Not because we're not engaged. But because we literally have no one to vote for in a false democracy that will only ever biase against us.

If you don't vote, the message you send is that you don't care.

If you do care and can't bring yourself to vote for anyone, turn up and spoil your paper. Spoiled papers do get counted, and if they start happening in any sizeable number, it will be noticed and will send the message you want to send.

[GigiFusc]

If you don't vote, the message you send is that you don't care.

If you do care and can't bring yourself to vote for anyone, turn up and spoil your paper. Spoiled papers do get counted, and if they start happening in any sizeable number, it will be noticed and will send the message you want to send.

I've heard that argument and it's flawed. Spoiled papers get put into a legitimate group of votes - they can't seperate protest spoiled papers from genuine spoiled papers so they have no meaning.

Not voting gets counted more with each election - if you look for any graph that shows total voting, they show the percentage of people that didn't vote. They never (or rarely) show spoiled papers.

As for the 'message' I'm sending - that's down to your individual reading of it. If you're happy to believe the media that millions of people can't be bothered to vote, there's not much I can do about that other than to come on a forum like this and try to explain otherwise. The EU referendum proved that the lack of voting in a GE being down to apathy was a complete and total fallacy/lie.