Brexit or Britain Stronger?

[mogwen]

The EU is in no mood for a new deal anyway. Negotiations have taken months and no one in the continent wants to do all that **** again.

So, i don't know, either Britain manages to gain some more time (not sure what good it will do as no new deal is going to be discussed) or then, yeah, no deal.

To be honest i'm kinda amazed that some pretty key points haven't been more discussed BEFORE the whole process was started. Like, for example, Britain is importing half of its food from the continent. Most of it through Calais, France.

Soon, once the border is back, that's going to be a huge freaking mess to deal with all that fret. (thanks to customs and ****) And yeah, prices on those products are of course going to be on the rise.

Put it on the laziness of the politics! Their sense of entitlement!
As I always say, never trust a conservative for a difficult negociation, they're just too used to have things going their way since their childhood!

[Coin Biter]

It's not the traditional Conservative MPs who have mostly been the issue, though. The old guard - Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke, Oliver Letwin - are all fairly clear eyed. Granted, they all voted Remain, but they were also consistently realistic about what needed to be done; and bear in mind Letwin never wanted to oppose the government, he's only had to because of their incompetence.

But a hell of a lot of MPs came into office when the party had essentially become Eurosceptic to the core, and they're the problem. No position gained through negotiation would ever have been good enough. John Major was good at negotiation, back in the day, and the Parliamentary party never forgave him for his deal.

I fear I don't have any confidence in Labour either.

[Kirby101]

I predict if there is a No Deal Brexit, we will soon see a new Scottish referendum. Which will pass, especially if they have an EU guarantee before hand. Then Britian is truly f*^ked.

[jetengine]

Corbyns pro Brexit himself, which is hilarious because if he was anti he might well have swept may instead of having her team up with Irish lunatics. Unlike the Tories though his anti eu ideal isnt based on a lunatic idea of "Well be fine on our own" but a slightly less crazy idea of "I cant nationalise **** if the EU are tied to us"

Both are still stupid but Corbyns at least has an understandable (if flawed) reason.

[Coin Biter]

Loads of developments over the last few weeks:

1. On 18 February 7 (soon to be 8) MPs left Labour to form an "Independent" group (not as yet a party). There were a variety of reasons: some, like Luciana Berger, had suffered anti-semitic abuse and all were critical of what they saw was the weakness of the leadership in combating anti-semitism, all were pro-EU and supported a second referendum, and some were long-standing critics of Corbyn who probably would have left or been deselected at some point. Regardless, this was a big blow to the Labour leadership, especially given there are likely many more who might be tempted to jump ship. The response from Corbyn was fairly muted until yesterday, when he backed a second Brexit referendum, which should serve to quell some of the concerns of those who were thinking of leaving, and will be popular with the party membership as a whole.

2. It will not necessarily be popular with all of the MPs however. Brexiteer MPs, such as John Mann, who is as much a Brexiteer as any Tory, have predictably expressed disgust. In addition, though, other MPs, such as Stephen Kinnock, have expressed concern, given how divisive they think such a Referendum would be. It is feared that the internal opposition from Labour MPs would be enough to sink any attempt to introduce a second Referendum.

3. Theresa May was all geared up to ridicule Corbyn last week over the departures of his MPs when, lo and behold, in the morning 3 of her MPs left the Conservative party: Anna Soubry, Heidi Allen, and Sarah Wollaston. As with the Labour MPs, they are all pro-EU, and in their case have complained that the party has become hijacked by an extremist Brexit wing, the party within the party, the ERG. They haven't joined the Independent Group, which isn't surprising, as aside from being pro-EU and opposed to their party leadership, they have little else in common in terms of political briefs with the Independent Group.

4. It is widely known that there are many more Tory MPs, in and outside Cabinet, who are terrified of the prospect of No Deal, worried about Theresa May's brinkmanship approach, and disgusted by the influence of the ERG. They have now threatened to vote, on the 27th, on Yvette Cooper's amendment to seek a Brexit extension.

5. May's approach has been two-pronged: firstly, she has further delayed the "meaningful vote" on her deal to the 12 March. This is in part no doubt in hope that the EU will propose some formulation that will rescue her Brexit deal, but is largely a fairly transparent attempt to run down the clock to the UK's departure on 29 March, to make it impossible for MPs who wish to avoid no deal to vote against her deal. Her critics inside and outside Cabinet are obviously aware of this, and have made it clear that they would vote in favour of extending. The second prong of her approach has therefore been to promise that the MPs will also be entitled to vote for a "short" extension on 12 March.

There are a few problems with this: firstly, a short extension may be pointless, secondly, no one really trusts May's promises, and thirdly, May hasn't outlined how the government would approach the vote (would it be whipped in favour?) Will it be sufficient to buy off her critics?

I guess we'll find out tomorrow, in what has become the biggest Parliamentary crisis since...oh God knows. Maybe the reform of the Corn Laws in the 1840s?

[jetengine]

All this because Cameron couldnt just tell some of his MPs to shut the **** up and sit down. Oh and being worried that Farages fruitcakes would somehow sweep the election.

[Coin Biter]

All this because Cameron couldnt just tell some of his MPs to shut the **** up and sit down. Oh and being worried that Farages fruitcakes would somehow sweep the election.

Well the Conservative civil war has been bubbling over for ages - these ERG people are in some cases the same people, in other cases the descendants of the people who used to give John Major hell back in the 90s. If I was going to trace their lineage back it would probably be to Margaret Thatcher, who became a hardline Eurosceptic out of office, despite herself signing the Single European Act, the single most important legislative development since the UK joined the EU in the first place.

The anti-EU sentiment was a fringe issue, which initially only a limited number of backbenchers cared about, but which ultimately came to consume the party membership and now has taken over the party. The Conservatives used to rely on the fact that their elected representatives didn't really believe the raw meat that was served up to the party members in the Daily Mail/Telegraph and at party conferences... that has all changed now. Decades of nonsensical and mendacious anti-EU rhetoric have come home to roost.

Considering how the question of Europe damaged Major's government and consumed party battles subsequently, including propelling the preposterous IDS to party leadership, and that the Lib Dems themselves had often called for a referendum, I can understand why Cameron did it - an attempt to settle the argument for a generation. His greatest sins were not in calling the Referendum, but in not properly setting out the options that people would be voting for, and in running away from Parliament like a coward afterwards. He has abdicated responsibility - in the same way that the Eurosceptics will abdicate any responsibility over the damage that Brexit will cause.

[DebkoX]

Today I was asked to describe Brexit to a Canadian lecture hall.

I couldn't.

[Kirby101]

Second Brxit vote in Commons goes down to a colossal defeat. Few options left for May, and UK is mostly f*(ked.

No Deal Brexit is a disaster
Ask EU for an extension, but the same problems remain and it's hard to see what will change
Have a referendum to rescind Brexit and stay in the EU. Not likely.

If there is a No Deal Brexit, I see Scotland and maybe N. Ireland leaving the UK.

[jetengine]

Today I was asked to describe Brexit to a Canadian lecture hall.

I couldn't.

"Politicians spent years blaming their unpopular and damaging policies on the EU, then when populist/nationalist lunatics began infringing slightly on conservative parties ground they freaked out and appeased their Euro-hating members. Unfortunately they expected a public filled with propaganda and sick to the back teeth of their policies to agree with them that the Eu was actually fairly neccesary to avoid a monkey wrench in the economy, they failed after much bullshit from the leave group and laziness from stay. Instead of then sorting out what happened next they then immediately pressed the 'Leave Button' and messed around for 2 years including a failure of a Leadership vote which required May to side with Irish fundamentalist lunatics which has hampered any more deal making.

Meanwhile the earlier mentioned Euro hating conservative members have been waiting for the clock to run down whilst transferring all their hedge funds etc out the country. Oh and despite multiple buisnesses and experts pointing out how ruinous this will be the general public are too stupid to actually think how this will effect them in any way other then how the murdoch controlled newspapers tell them"

[Kirby101]

"Politicians spent years blaming their unpopular and damaging policies on the EU, then when populist/nationalist lunatics began infringing slightly on conservative parties ground they freaked out and appeased their Euro-hating members. Unfortunately they expected a public filled with propaganda and sick to the back teeth of their policies to agree with them that the Eu was actually fairly neccesary to avoid a monkey wrench in the economy, they failed after much bullshit from the leave group and laziness from stay. Instead of then sorting out what happened next they then immediately pressed the 'Leave Button' and messed around for 2 years including a failure of a Leadership vote which required May to side with Irish fundamentalist lunatics which has hampered any more deal making.

Meanwhile the earlier mentioned Euro hating conservative members have been waiting for the clock to run down whilst transferring all their hedge funds etc out the country. Oh and despite multiple buisnesses and experts pointing out how ruinous this will be the general public are too stupid to actually think how this will effect them in any way other then how the murdoch controlled newspapers tell them"

Brilliant!

[JackDaw]

"Politicians spent years blaming their unpopular and damaging policies on the EU, then when populist/nationalist lunatics began infringing slightly on conservative parties ground they freaked out and appeased their Euro-hating members. Unfortunately they expected a public filled with propaganda and sick to the back teeth of their policies to agree with them that the Eu was actually fairly neccesary to avoid a monkey wrench in the economy, they failed after much bullshit from the leave group and laziness from stay. Instead of then sorting out what happened next they then immediately pressed the 'Leave Button' and messed around for 2 years including a failure of a Leadership vote which required May to side with Irish fundamentalist lunatics which has hampered any more deal making.

Meanwhile the earlier mentioned Euro hating conservative members have been waiting for the clock to run down whilst transferring all their hedge funds etc out the country. Oh and despite multiple buisnesses and experts pointing out how ruinous this will be the general public are too stupid to actually think how this will effect them in any way other then how the murdoch controlled newspapers tell them"

The EU is another layer of politicians and bureaucrats rather than a collection of saints!

Looked at at a high level...which is often best way to get at the truth in complex situations...the EU is a bloc of very rich to moderately rich European countries that trade freely among themselves while imposing enormous trade barriers on far poorer third world countries.

[jetengine]

The EU is another layer of politicians and bureaucrats rather than a collection of saints!

Looked at at a high level...which is often best way to get at the truth in complex situations...the EU is a bloc of very rich to moderately rich European countries that trade freely among themselves while imposing enormous trade barriers on far poorer third world countries.

....and ?

Its how the modern world works.

[PaulBullion]

Finally a hint of sanity in this Brexit mess:

Uri Geller promises to stop Brexit using telepathy

Illusionist Uri Geller has told Theresa May he will “not allow” her to lead Britain out of the EU.

In an open letter to the prime minister, the Israeli-British TV personality said he felt “psychically and very strongly” that most Britons were anti-Brexit and promised to stop the process telepathically. He wrote: “I feel psychically and very strongly that most British people do not want Brexit. I love you very much but I will not allow you to lead Britain into Brexit. As much as I admire you, I will stop you telepathically from doing this – and believe me I am capable of executing it. Before I take this drastic course of action, I appeal to you to stop the process immediately while you still have a chance.”

Geller, who is currently in Israel, used to live in Sonning, which lies in May’s Maidenhead constituency. In his letter, he said he had known the prime minister for 21 years and that she had visited his home.


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He added: “Three years before you became prime minister, I predicted your victory when I showed you Winston Churchill’s spoon on my Cadillac, which I asked you to touch.”

[DebkoX]

The protest/march looked to have a good turnout.