So the young Avenger's show up in Ant Man and no Eli at all...are they trying to just write him out?

[JediKage]

Character got scapegoated. They didn't want him with Kate so they dumped on him and saddled him with bad storylines. Meanwhile Wiccan gets a free pass for every screw up

[Darkspellmaster]

It sucks that Eli has been left to rot in comic book limbo. I would agree the steroid story was kinda dumb, and carries with it some unfortunate implications that were not intended.

But it seems like they are starting to bring some of the Young Avengers together in more casual situations. Kate showed up to visit Cassie in Ant-Man, MAC having conversations with Kate in Hawkeye. Aren't Billy and Teddy going to see some of their old friends in New Avengers? Hopefully we can see Eli there. Build him back up.

(Is Marvel trying to distance the Captain America franchise from The Truth mini?)

I should hope that they do have Billy and Teddy meet with them. Cassie and Kate got to come back to meet and Al's pretty good at keeping pluses with the teens and dealing with issues so maybe they'll have them meet. If they don't I will be highly disappointed in marvel. It's sort of reminding me of the whole no Cassandra Cane and Steph Brown thing in Batman back when the new 52 started. Except made worse with bad implications, is he even in the new Marvel lego game? I mean they have Reptile in there as a possible character to unlock, so?

Yeah I'm starting to wonder that too. Marvel has no reason to do so as it's an interesting twist on the situation with Captain. Maybe they are, but why? It's something that makes sense and, if anything, in the event that the others can't play CA (Steve, Sam, Bucky, etc.) Eli would be the best choice before Dani Cage was old enough too.

I liked the whole steroid thing. I think it was worth exploring. I do feel like the blood transfusion that ended up giving him super powers was a little too convenient though. It's almost like he was rewarded for doing the wrong thing. >.>

But anyway, I don't know what's going on with Eli for sure. I just have my suspicions that Marvel doesn't want two african american Captain America-ish characters around at one time. Hence that redundancy thing I made mention of earlier.

I liked it too, it was something that does happen to young people and something that isn't talked about very much. Eh I wouldn't say he's being rewarded, he nearly died in the process, it's sort of like he's being given a second chance, like Loki dying and coming back. We've seen it before with other characters, and the blood transfusion thing worked with Jennifer and Bruce too, I wouldn't say that it's being a reward for him because now that he does have it he has to prove that he understands the responsibility of having those powers.

But they're two very different characters. His name Patriot isn't connected to Captain America's title, it was Jeff Mace's and the idea that there are too many Captain's running around is odd since we have at least four variations of a female spider character (Gwen, Jessica, Silk, Anya, not to mention Mayday and possibly MJ in a spider armor outfit), two hulks Bruce and Amadeus, and two black panthers (T'challa and Shuri), and we've had a couple of thor's running around before, so what is the difference here?

This is so messed up. He's one of the best characters from YA and the effort to forget him is disturbing.

It is really. Given that Gillian wanted to use him and got told no, and then whatever plans fell through and now, back in limbo. Tom B. mentioned on his spring form that he's retired in the midwest, but I would think someone like Eli wouldn't sit still for this long given situations in New York and especially since his best buds are now Avengers, and Sam's captain.

Character got scapegoated. They didn't want him with Kate so they dumped on him and saddled him with bad storylines. Meanwhile Wiccan gets a free pass for every screw up

I don't think they were trying to break him up with Kate, I think it was more the fact that there was a few essays written about him at the time that seemed to imply that he was a stereotype character and that he painted a bad impression of a "angry young black man" for some reason. There were a lot of flaws in Eli, but I always thought that that made him interesting because even with all the flaws he ultimately wanted to do the right thing and he believed in helping Iron Lad, and one thing I gave them credit for was that he always had Billy and Teddy's back early on in regard to their relationship and friendship, which at the time I thought was really smart given the time period and the reaction from people about the possibility of Billy and teddy at the time being a couple.

The thing about Billy is that there's a weird mentality that they can't have him do any wrong, or if he does there's not much fall out from it. He's the child of Wanda and Vision along with Tommy, I would think that there would be some questions about Vision being their friend and Father in two different forms. Given his power set too, there's a huge chance for a fairly large screw up, and it would be nice to see him have to deal with that, closest we got was a possible break up between him and Ted, which I wouldn't mind as it would be nice to see the characters be with other people for a while, just like all other characters save for the married ones.

[JediKage]

I think its like Arizona or New Mexico. I forget. But nope I always though the I have plans was BS. Reminds me of Cass Cain. I didn't believe it until I actually saw her.

[Darkspellmaster]

I think its like Arizona or New Mexico. I forget. But nope I always though the I have plans was BS. Reminds me of Cass Cain. I didn't believe it until I actually saw her.

Exactly. Harper was made because DC wouldn't let Scott Synder use Cassandra for his story so he had to make a new character. And Arizona as I recall, which would put him in line to meet with Sam from Nova, since, you know, Sam lives over there. And I agree, I would think that at least Al or someone would use him as part of the story. If anything I would have thought that Sam Wilson would have, at least, or Rodey, would have gone to talk to him. I mean there are several teams he could easily fit into with no issue at all in regard to joining: ANAD Avengers could have him working with the newer team and probably becoming friends with Miles, Kamala, and Sam easily since all three are pretty calm and not judgmental, Avengers via AIM could be interesting because you have Billy and Teddy on there and they would vouch for him and given Roberto's view on everything and you already have a former bad guy in Song bird on there it's not hard to picture someone like Eli joining, Ulitmates are also good and having someone like Blue Marvel be a mentor to him might help Eli out some and change his view point...

There's so much here, and instead we relegate him to limbo.

[chamber-music]

It is odd that no writers are using Eli. Patriot would be a great fit for a number of titles such as the young legacy Avengers book, Ultimate, Sunspot's Avengers, Steve Rogers Cap or Sam Wilson Cap book.

Another one of those minority heroes Marvel created but is no longer interested in using despite their diversity push.

[Darkspellmaster]

which again is really weird because if anyone would be a good fit for the whole "Future" aspect of Marvel it would be Eli. Grandson of the very first captain, friends with Bucky, I think he grew to be friends with Steve, has respect for the legacy and what Jeff, Isaiah, Steve, James and Sam stand for in regard to what they are, and has dealt with situations that some of the bad guys minions have been in in the past. I would think that he would have worked well for any of the teams, maybe, hopefully, someone can pull him from the brink. Hell, have him work with Loki as someone who's working with him running for president, that could be interesting too.

[JamJams]

I still believe he was going to be in Avengers Arena, and after Mettle that was cut (probably because he was going to die too; and Hopeless realised that would be a REALLY bad idea).

I've talked to Hopeless about his Arena run at a comic con when it was running. Eli was never meant to join the Arena and the people he wanted to join that were unavailable where from the mutant side.



Also, I never understood why Patriot got a 'bad rep' for using drugs to give himself powers so he could do the greater good. That is literally the origin of Steve Rogers.

[Darkspellmaster]

I've talked to Hopeless about his Arena run at a comic con when it was running. Eli was never meant to join the Arena and the people he wanted to join that were unavailable where from the mutant side.



Also, I never understood why Patriot got a 'bad rep' for using drugs to give himself powers so he could do the greater good. That is literally the origin of Steve Rogers.

So then if it wasn't hopeless, who was going to use him? Or was that a case of "we don't want him used so we lie to you" situation. I'd really like to know what's going on with that.

Agreed. I mean if you look at cloak and Dagger, who, mind you are getting their own tv show, had drugs (even worse magic cocaine) give them their powers then it was changed into "Oh they were mutants this whole time and the cocaine just forced the mutation. You could potentially do something like that with Eli where because of some weird inhuman or mutant based gene that was in his system the steroids were enhancing something there, or, you know, slightly reccon the age of his mother to be that she was born after her father had gotten the syrum and thus Eli already had some of it in him early on.

I never understood why no one had thought to do that in the first place, just recon some slight changes in the time and have it where the there was a gene or something to make the whole issue with Steroids less of an issue.

[Fokken]

The thing about Billy is that there's a weird mentality that they can't have him do any wrong, or if he does there's not much fall out from it. He's the child of Wanda and Vision along with Tommy, I would think that there would be some questions about Vision being their friend and Father in two different forms. Given his power set too, there's a huge chance for a fairly large screw up, and it would be nice to see him have to deal with that, closest we got was a possible break up between him and Ted, which I wouldn't mind as it would be nice to see the characters be with other people for a while, just like all other characters save for the married ones.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say he got a free pass. His guilt over the deaths of Cassie and Jonas sent him into a spiraling depression spanning several months, sequestering himself and retiring from his heroic ambitions, followed by a misguided apology attempt to Teddy resulting in the endangerment of reality, the dissolution of he and Teddy's romantic relationship and a botched suicide attempt.

Looking back on Eli's history as a Young Avenger -- I'd say that he and Billy have some key similarities beyond their young-heroing.
Both of them made misguided choices (using MGH to gain powers / attempting to restore Teddy's mother), with the best of intentions that eventually lead to their respective retirements (however briefly).
Both of them made reckless decisions specific to their interaction with the Scarlet Witch (firing an arrow at Wanda disrupting the spell / igniting a war with Doom for selfish reasons) that harmed their friends.

[Rogue Star]

I think its like Arizona or New Mexico. I forget. But nope I always though the I have plans was BS. Reminds me of Cass Cain. I didn't believe it until I actually saw her.

Heh, my other favorite Cassandra. I hope they don't ruin her character just to make Batwoman look good.

[Rogue Star]

which again is really weird because if anyone would be a good fit for the whole "Future" aspect of Marvel it would be Eli. Grandson of the very first captain, friends with Bucky, I think he grew to be friends with Steve, has respect for the legacy and what Jeff, Isaiah, Steve, James and Sam stand for in regard to what they are, and has dealt with situations that some of the bad guys minions have been in in the past. I would think that he would have worked well for any of the teams, maybe, hopefully, someone can pull him from the brink. Hell, have him work with Loki as someone who's working with him running for president, that could be interesting too.

Exactly, but Sam is in the movies now so they have to raise his visibility even though it should be Eli's time.

[Loki]

which again is really weird because if anyone would be a good fit for the whole "Future" aspect of Marvel it would be Eli. Grandson of the very first captain.

I am a big fan of Isaiah, and wish they'd restore his mind so he could be active again, but he was not the first Captain America. That's still Steve. By the time Isaiah enlisted, a few months after Pearl Harbor, Steve was publicly active as Captain America and serving with the Invaders in Europe.

[Michael Watkins]

I realize that it is not a popular opinion/no offense intended...but I don't like the Young Avengers. there's nothing wrong with the concept of a fledgling hero team idolizing the Avengers. it's been done (and better, imo). it just seems like they were whipped together to beat a deadline; kind of like the Kevin Grevioux New Warriors. I say that because, individually, they have overly-complicated origin stories. did they ever explain why Tommy was in some secret facility/why no one was looking for him? and some of their codenames make them hard to be taken seriously (ex. Hulkling). Eli is more of the same. nice costume. inoffensive codename. but then they saddle him with the steroid origin (on its face, not too dissimilar to how Cassie received her powers). seems like nothing. but he's the 4th black male character to whom the label "cheater" could be applied. Everett Thomas/Synch (who I actually liked) had the mutant ability to copy other people's mutant abilities. David Alleyne/Prodigy (who I actually like) had the mutant ability to sponge off of other people's knowledge. Delroy Garrett jr/Triathlon was a disgraced steroid using Olympian who was empowered by the Triune Understanding & was an Avenger for a run or 2 before basically being forgotten. compare that to Kate Bishop who becomes as good of an archer and fighter as Clint Barton from pure gumption. rant over.

I just vastly preferred the Young Avengers run where they faced Mother. that team seemed a little bit more organic.

[JediKage]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say he got a free pass. His guilt over the deaths of Cassie and Jonas sent him into a spiraling depression spanning several months, sequestering himself and retiring from his heroic ambitions, followed by a misguided apology attempt to Teddy resulting in the endangerment of reality, the dissolution of he and Teddy's romantic relationship and a botched suicide attempt.

Looking back on Eli's history as a Young Avenger -- I'd say that he and Billy have some key similarities beyond their young-heroing.
Both of them made misguided choices (using MGH to gain powers / attempting to restore Teddy's mother), with the best of intentions that eventually lead to their respective retirements (however briefly).
Both of them made reckless decisions specific to their interaction with the Scarlet Witch (firing an arrow at Wanda disrupting the spell / igniting a war with Doom for selfish reasons) that harmed their friends.

No. Eli was right. Trusting Doom with immense power has never ended well before that story or after. That is the only story Dr. Doom doesn't try to steal power. Because from what I can remember he was Super in Love with Wanda? It was just written from a really pro Wiccan position so that Eli could get scapegoated

[Michael Watkins]

Keep in mind that Cassie was put in the grave for a while and only recently resurrected because Scott Lang has a book now, but she's not her old self at all - not by a long shot.

(edit: It just hit me that if Ant-Man didn't have a series right now my girl Cassie would still be dead. Wow. What a depressing thought.)

fair enough. but, and correct me if i'm wrong, I think your issue is with Cassie being exactly like her old self. remove the events of Young Avengers and this is the most canonically-accurate version of Cassie, yet. do you have an example of something she has done or said that is out of character? she has reacted to (temporarily) having her powers removed exactly as I expected. and they've even set her up to become Stinger; which I find very exciting. btw, it could be said that Cassie died because of the Young Avengers. her finding some way for her dad to return was a Young Avengers subplot. I kind of wish that her time as a Young Avenger hadn't happened. she came off as really entitled and flaky during it. plus she turned on her team, during Civil War.