So the young Avenger's show up in Ant Man and no Eli at all...are they trying to just write him out?

[Michael Watkins]

No. Eli was right. Trusting Doom with immense power has never ended well before that story or after. That is the only story Dr. Doom doesn't try to steal power. Because from what I can remember he was Super in Love with Wanda? It was just written from a really pro Wiccan position so that Eli could get scapegoated

the issue is that Eli's actions didn't save the day. a lot of people ended up looking badly in that mini.

[legion_quest]

Never been a fan of Eli, though granted that's because generally the writers using him never wrote him in a way to gain him fans.

For me, making him a MGH user and then making him try to moralise his way out of it, before being made in to this over moraled character really hurt him, in a way that, for me, he's not come back from (though granted, he's never had the chance to).

I can see why it sucks for his fans, but I dislike the character so much.....I dont really want to see him back! Sorry!

[Smoov-E]

Hmmm....I've haven't seen the level of shade thrown at Wiccan or Cassie that Eli gets. Even so, that hasn't stopped any writer from using those characters.

The highest amount of "shade" thrown at Wiccan has been of the "it's all about him and I'd rather the other team members get some screen time" and that was during Gillen's run. Meanwhile people treat Eli like he's a joke and gladly do so

[JediKage]

There is that and him being called whiny. Which I don't think you can argue against.

Probably doesn't help Young Avengers and Runaways both screw the only black guy on the team first. Granted Runaways could have been a good twist without the instakilling. Even that could have worked if he had stolen the power of the 3 gods and come back. Would have been a good doom style arc.

[KOSLOX]

I'd rather see Josiah X come back truthfully.

[Darkspellmaster]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say he got a free pass. His guilt over the deaths of Cassie and Jonas sent him into a spiraling depression spanning several months, sequestering himself and retiring from his heroic ambitions, followed by a misguided apology attempt to Teddy resulting in the endangerment of reality, the dissolution of he and Teddy's romantic relationship and a botched suicide attempt.

This is all very true, but the thing is that even after all that, no one's looking at Billy as a pariah for his actions. Sure his friends became really upset at him, but they also pointed the finger at Loki for manipulating a lot of those choices. Teddy was about the only one that really got mad at him the others were more along the lines of upset to sympathy in some cases. There was more anger directed at Loki then at Billy, which, if you look at it, it was both their faults in a lot of ways. Also, the fact that Billy hasn't gotten the talk from the Avengers, or even some questions from them in regard to his reality warping actions, something that plagued Wanda for a long time after her bout with depression and the whole no more mutants/House of M situation. It's not brought up at all, which I would think that, if anything some of the members of his team would be wary about him using too much power given events of YAII.

Looking back on Eli's history as a Young Avenger -- I'd say that he and Billy have some key similarities beyond their young-heroing.
Both of them made misguided choices (using MGH to gain powers / attempting to restore Teddy's mother), with the best of intentions that eventually lead to their respective retirements (however briefly).
Both of them made reckless decisions specific to their interaction with the Scarlet Witch (firing an arrow at Wanda disrupting the spell / igniting a war with Doom for selfish reasons) that harmed their friends.

Agreed that their actions had the best of intentions, although in a lot of ways Eli was right about Doom and power given the whole situation with Secret Wars and how that played out. The only thing is that while Billy was brought out of retirement, Eli still is Retired, and it seems weird that even Speed was brought back into the fold, for however short it was, showed that Marvel was willing to have them use the characters and have them active. Eli has yet to make a real cameo even since CC which is going on, what now, almost ten years or something? Most characters come out of retirement after a certain point, unless they are killed off (RIP Goliath), and are usually available to use according to the Heads of Marvel who say as long as there's a good pitch they'll be willing to look at it. So what gives here? Why can Billy come out of retirement and become a headliner in Avengers, and Eli is relegated to the back burner? I would think it's been long enough in regard to the issues that happened with the HGH and that people can handle that sort of issue now.

Heh, my other favorite Cassandra. I hope they don't ruin her character just to make Batwoman look good.

Exactly, but Sam is in the movies now so they have to raise his visibility even though it should be Eli's time.

Given that Tom King really likes Cassandra and seems to have been a fan of her's back in the day when she first came out, I don't think they will. They have to build her up, so they may have Kate and her working together more than her and Steph. I really wish that they let Eli over Steve's adopted son, what's his name again, help Sam. I think that that would have been an interesting dynamic in regard to how Sam delt with Eli's views and maybe changed them over time and vice versa, letting Sam see where Eli comes from.

I am a big fan of Isaiah, and wish they'd restore his mind so he could be active again, but he was not the first Captain America. That's still Steve. By the time Isaiah enlisted, a few months after Pearl Harbor, Steve was publicly active as Captain America and serving with the Invaders in Europe.

Okay, good point. I agree that they have to restore that character, since he's an interesting person and I'm pretty sure that he and Steve and Bucky could have some interesting discussions about things and how they've changed.

I realize that it is not a popular opinion/no offense intended...but I don't like the Young Avengers. there's nothing wrong with the concept of a fledgling hero team idolizing the Avengers. it's been done (and better, imo). it just seems like they were whipped together to beat a deadline; kind of like the Kevin Grevioux New Warriors.

Orignally it wasn't whipped together, it was something that apparently had been needed given that at the time, DC was killing it with Young Justice and the Titans, if I recall correctly. They asked Hinnenburg to build this team and he did based on his own love of the characters that he wanted to include. Also I don't really think they were idolizing the Avengers, it was more about how do we stop Kang from really screwing things over. Because the Avengers were too busy at the time.

[quote] I say that because, individually, they have overly-complicated origin stories. did they ever explain why Tommy was in some secret facility/why no one was looking for him? [quote]

That was supposed to be covered and then the book got canned apparently. So no, we never got a full story on why that was, sadly. Yet another thing that could be used by the writers and no one's jumped on that.

and some of their codenames make them hard to be taken seriously (ex. Hulkling). Eli is more of the same. nice costume. inoffensive codename. but then they saddle him with the steroid origin (on its face, not too dissimilar to how Cassie received her powers). seems like nothing. but he's the 4th black male character to whom the label "cheater" could be applied. Everett Thomas/Synch (who I actually liked) had the mutant ability to copy other people's mutant abilities. David Alleyne/Prodigy (who I actually like) had the mutant ability to sponge off of other people's knowledge.

I get the feeling that Hulking came more from Billy giving the name to Teddy over Teddy deciding, "Hey this is a great name for me." Cassie got it from the particles due to heart transplant, Eli was apparently using so that he could be able to help the others out. I wouldn't say he cheated, unlike the other two you mentioned Eli didn't have any powers at all and pretty much tried to help out with out them after he stopped using. It was harder for him, and it nearly got him killed, but he did his best, and also I wouldn't say it's a cheating power for the other two, rogue does it as well when she takes peoples powers from them.

Delroy Garrett jr/Triathlon was a disgraced steroid using Olympian who was empowered by the Triune Understanding & was an Avenger for a run or 2 before basically being forgotten. compare that to Kate Bishop who becomes as good of an archer and fighter as Clint Barton from pure gumption. rant over.

Kate became a good archer because of a whole assult back story, which later was changed over to where she found out her dad was doing some legit awful things and it's just a hodgepodge now of a back story in regard to her past. Yes Kate and Clint are both great archers because of their skills, but bear in mind that both were doing archery long before Eli was doing any fighting at all.

I just vastly preferred the Young Avengers run where they faced Mother. that team seemed a little bit more organic.

Except for the fact that it was Loki that brought them together, and some, like America, just stuck around at first to keep an Eye on Loki.

[Darkspellmaster]

No. Eli was right. Trusting Doom with immense power has never ended well before that story or after. That is the only story Dr. Doom doesn't try to steal power. Because from what I can remember he was Super in Love with Wanda? It was just written from a really pro Wiccan position so that Eli could get scapegoated

It was more written to clean up Wanda so that people would stop attacking her, it's pro Billy because he was the one that wanted to help her. And the love thing with Wanda only was until that story, and it also put the X-men in a bad light too with the whole thing. Given that it was doom I was surprised that it wasn't the FF coming into play at all during that story. I don't know if Alan Hinnburg was too thrilled with the final product either?

fair enough. but, and correct me if i'm wrong, I think your issue is with Cassie being exactly like her old self. remove the events of Young Avengers and this is the most canonically-accurate version of Cassie, yet. do you have an example of something she has done or said that is out of character? she has reacted to (temporarily) having her powers removed exactly as I expected. and they've even set her up to become Stinger; which I find very exciting. btw, it could be said that Cassie died because of the Young Avengers. her finding some way for her dad to return was a Young Avengers subplot. I kind of wish that her time as a Young Avenger hadn't happened. she came off as really entitled and flaky during it. plus she turned on her team, during Civil War.

I like the fact that we're getting stinger out of this, great nod to the MC2. Cassie was aged up for YA, as I last recall prior to the story of YA she was 8 or 9 when her dad died, and then she was 14 or so. I think the only thing that seemed OOC for me was he wondering about the "Hot Pics" of Noh Varr as that really wasn't something that Cassie was into prior to the series. She was more intent on her father and trying to be a good daughter for him.

the issue is that Eli's actions didn't save the day. a lot of people ended up looking badly in that mini.

Then again, how do you deal with Doom exactly? Can you really trust him to do the right thing? Everything Doom does, he does for himself, and we saw in Secret wars what happens when Doom has power.

Never been a fan of Eli, though granted that's because generally the writers using him never wrote him in a way to gain him fans.

For me, making him a MGH user and then making him try to moralise his way out of it, before being made in to this over moraled character really hurt him, in a way that, for me, he's not come back from (though granted, he's never had the chance to).

I can see why it sucks for his fans, but I dislike the character so much.....I dont really want to see him back! Sorry!

The problem is that instead of dealing with the abuse the way that DC and Marvel did with Roy and Tony they just sort of rushed it since the series was ending it seemed, and I'm wondering if the reason why he seemed so moral was because of the fact that they needed to focus on making Wanda okay rather then fixing things in a different way as well as bring Scott back. Everything in that series seemed rushed.

The highest amount of "shade" thrown at Wiccan has been of the "it's all about him and I'd rather the other team members get some screen time" and that was during Gillen's run. Meanwhile people treat Eli like he's a joke and gladly do so

The thing about the whole YA II run was really it was Loki's story with a bit of Billy in there. The others were playing parts in it, but really it was the story of Loki coming to terms with who he was and what he did in JIM and then Billy in trying to deal with his friend's death. Which brings up a point, other then Kate, has Billy or Teddy even contacted Cassie since she came back? I mean even when she was in NYC?

I'd be happy to see any of the Bradley family come back in some form or another. I would think that Dr. Adam Basher would be an interesting character to have meet with Josiah X, or even Luke Cage, or any of the characters.

[Fokken]

No. Eli was right. Trusting Doom with immense power has never ended well before that story or after. That is the only story Dr. Doom doesn't try to steal power. Because from what I can remember he was Super in Love with Wanda? It was just written from a really pro Wiccan position so that Eli could get scapegoated

I believe you misread my post.
The examples I gave were intended to be one for Eli and one for Billy.

Eli: Using MGH to gain powers
Billy: Attempting to restore Teddy's mother
Eli: Firing an arrow at Wanda disrupting the spell
Billy: Igniting a war with Doom for selfish reasons

I too believe that trusting Doom was foolish. I didn't mean to imply that Eli was wrong -- just that his actions (the arrow thing) fumbled and hurt some folks, despite his good intentions.

[Loki]

I'd rather see Josiah X come back truthfully.

No need for it to be an either / or situation. It'd be nice to have all three - Isaiah, Josiah and Eli.

[Darkspellmaster]

I believe you misread my post.
The examples I gave were intended to be one for Eli and one for Billy.

Eli: Using MGH to gain powers
Billy: Attempting to restore Teddy's mother
Eli: Firing an arrow at Wanda disrupting the spell
Billy: Igniting a war with Doom for selfish reasons

I too believe that trusting Doom was foolish. I didn't mean to imply that Eli was wrong -- just that his actions (the arrow thing) fumbled and hurt some folks, despite his good intentions.

Has Doom actually made good on his promised threat to Billy or has that been swept away more recently? Just seems like a lot of things are vanishing in regard to the YA team's past actions in general. We didn't hear about Cassie quitting the team during CW in Ant-man, and Kate's back story is changing dramatically, I haven't had a chance to read Billy and Teddy, so are they doing a full on rewrite of the YA history? As if the team was just: Kate, Billy, Teddy, Johans, Tommy and Cassie, with no Nate or Eli?

[Fokken]

Has Doom actually made good on his promised threat to Billy or has that been swept away more recently? Just seems like a lot of things are vanishing in regard to the YA team's past actions in general. We didn't hear about Cassie quitting the team during CW in Ant-man, and Kate's back story is changing dramatically, I haven't had a chance to read Billy and Teddy, so are they doing a full on rewrite of the YA history? As if the team was just: Kate, Billy, Teddy, Johans, Tommy and Cassie, with no Nate or Eli?

WHOA.
What did they do to Kate's backstory??

[itspopularnowitsucks]

WHOA.
What did they do to Kate's backstory??

I don't read comics but I imagine Lemire is doing Lemire thing.

[4sake Baned]

So then if it wasn't hopeless, who was going to use him? Or was that a case of "we don't want him used so we lie to you" situation. I'd really like to know what's going on with that.

Agreed. I mean if you look at cloak and Dagger, who, mind you are getting their own tv show, had drugs (even worse magic cocaine) give them their powers then it was changed into "Oh they were mutants this whole time and the cocaine just forced the mutation. You could potentially do something like that with Eli where because of some weird inhuman or mutant based gene that was in his system the steroids were enhancing something there, or, you know, slightly reccon the age of his mother to be that she was born after her father had gotten the syrum and thus Eli already had some of it in him early on.

I never understood why no one had thought to do that in the first place, just recon some slight changes in the time and have it where the there was a gene or something to make the whole issue with Steroids less of an issue.

Lol magic cocaine... Best post of today imo..

[Darkspellmaster]

WHOA.
What did they do to Kate's backstory??

Well her father is now some sort of mob like character who beat the hell out of guys in a back room. She saw it and apparently this is what started her issues with her father. Her mother, it's implied, may have left because of knowing about this rather then her just not being happy in the marriage and there's some sort of hints that her sister may have known about this as well. So basically, Kate's daddy is now sort of a King Pin like character, who beats men that don't do what he wants, and is apparently involved in illicit deals. The implications are that she got into the idea of learning to shoot because she wanted to protect herself and doesn't trust him to not harm her. It's way far from what was once simply, girl wanted to protect herself from way back in the day. Oh and apparently she's got issues in her school too.

[4sake Baned]

Some YA fans let Marvel off the Hook because of the fact that they seemed to throw him and Cassie under the bus to get Wanda and Scott back, which is weird too on the part of Wanda fans in some cases. They really like Billy and want him all over and they forget he has a twin, Tommy, who's also a bit on the pissed off side of things being formerly seen as a criminal and isn't used that much at all. Yes on the throwing shade on him, that seems to be a thing, especially now with Prodigy around having been part of the former new team. It's like they're comparing the two.



Loki got redeemed, Noh Varr got redeemed, and yet here we have a kid that has a realistic problem and view point, not given a chance to show that there's more to him then angry kid with a former habit. You're right, and Noh Varr's actions in the past are pretty nasty as well in regard to how things played out with his character.



Seems like they're trying to bill the new inhuman, I forgot his name, the one with the rocks, as a sort of new Eli like character. You have some great personalities right now running around Marvel: Miles, Kamala, Anya, Sam, etc, who could really be interesting foils in regard to either creating character development with Eli or showing an opposing end of things. I mean someone like Miles, or Sam (Nova) would make for a interesting take on not quitting and given Mile's father's past it would make for a very intense discussion. Kamala being as she is probably would be kind of cool for him to maybe take a different view on how others see the heroes, and i can see her probably winning his friendship over discussing his grandfather and his past.



I agree. Maybe having him search for his Uncle, working with the rest of the CA group and growing as a person from that. I can see either of them coming up with a very strong way of dealing with Eli's past actions, making him come to terms with what happened to his grandfather and probably end his issues with Steve in regard to things. He won't always agree on matters but it would be a good start to show a stronger over all character arc.



It's not so much that a character can't be sent to the bottom, it's when they are written out of existence in such a way as if they were never created in the first place. That's where the rub comes in, it's like Gravity, who was a great strong character but because he was "too much like Peter Parker" even though his abilities were nothing alike, he was sent on the bus after the whole Young Allies series was canceled.



Wiccan is everyone's love child, apparently, when it looked like Billy and teddy were being split up all heck was breaking loose by fans of them. People blamed Teddy more then they ever blamed Billy, or even Prodigy for that matter. Billy is the "Saint" no wrong can be done by him, ever, apparently in some people's eyes, and that's fine, but Wiccan gets the least attacks over say the others in the group. Cassie gets hate but not as much, and Kate really only got it because of the whole thing with Marvel Boy, and sleeping with him. Tommy barely ever gets mention, I think Al has had Billy talk about him in the Avenger's series but he's not been shown a lot in most series. Cassie's memory is the first I've heard of him since YA 2, and that's been what, two years?



Exactly, a number of characters get attacked, but Marvel let's them be used. It's rather rude when you don't even show the character in a flash back.



Cassie still has a shot with Stinger, and I'm pretty sure that Marvel wasn't about to leave her in the dirt due to how they seem to want to go down a remade MC2 path for the future. She's not her old self, very true, and it seems she's a bit more excitable? Wonder how long they're going to let her stay Stinger.





Exactly! Look at Tony and Scott Lang, walking bill board for it. Rouge stole people's powers, Wanda...well we won't get into that, Reed's actions, T'challa's and even Bucky's, everyone in the MU makes mistakes and bad choices from time to time, they get arcs to clean it up why not him? If the rest of the YA cast can pretty much become the darlings of the MU, why not afford that option to Eli? Or is Marvel just scared someone's going to scream something about it being wrong?

Excellent points....