So the young Avenger's show up in Ant Man and no Eli at all...are they trying to just write him out?

[4sake Baned]

It's crazy to not suspect that the black male thing had something to do with not even be thought of especially with opportunity to work Sam.

I'd include some YA fans in letting Marvel off the hook for it, some folks act like he was never in the original line up and are quick to throw shade on him but won't take kindly to others doing that to other members of the team

Can't agree more...

[Cthulhudrew]

No need for it to be an either / or situation. It'd be nice to have all three - Isaiah, Josiah and Eli.

This would be cool. There is certainly room for them all. Heck, if the Hulk "family" can have umpteen titles and characters, why not patriotic characters?

[skyvolt2000]

It is odd that no writers are using Eli. Patriot would be a great fit for a number of titles such as the young legacy Avengers book, Ultimate, Sunspot's Avengers, Steve Rogers Cap or Sam Wilson Cap book.

Another one of those minority heroes Marvel created but is no longer interested in using despite their diversity push.

And add in the fact we just had Secret Wars where 2 universes merged.

History got rewritten to fit Miles in and no one asks a question about it.

So couldn't Eli get a clean slate?

[Michael Watkins]

Orignally it wasn't whipped together, it was something that apparently had been needed given that at the time, DC was killing it with Young Justice and the Titans, if I recall correctly. They asked Hinnenburg to build this team and he did based on his own love of the characters that he wanted to include. Also I don't really think they were idolizing the Avengers, it was more about how do we stop Kang from really screwing things over. Because the Avengers were too busy at the time.

that's kind of my point. they were created as an answer to Young Justice; instead of a writer having a great idea for a young hero team and pitching it to Marvel. the team was dictated to Heinberg by Brian Michael Bendis (by some accounts). and they were introduced as idolizing the Avengers; although that quickly changed after they encountered Iron Man. it's why Billy was 'Asgardian.'

I get the feeling that Hulking came more from Billy giving the name to Teddy over Teddy deciding, "Hey this is a great name for me."

that sounds right.

Cassie got it from the particles due to heart transplant,

no. she clearly stated that she had been 'borrowing' particles from her dad. the heart transplant is how her powers were removed; recently.

Eli was apparently using so that he could be able to help the others out. I wouldn't say he cheated, unlike the other two you mentioned Eli didn't have any powers at all and pretty much tried to help out with out them after he stopped using.

I understand. it's just unfortunate because of stereotypes about drug use. and I call it "cheating" in contrast to Kate Bishop; who simply trained enough to eventually become the leader of the team. it instantly makes Eli seem unqualified.

It was harder for him, and it nearly got him killed, but he did his best, and also I wouldn't say it's a cheating power for the other two, rogue does it as well when she takes peoples powers from them.

Rogue was introduced as a villain. and they gave her Ms.Marvel's powers permanently, in part, to make sure that she wasn't reliant on power-thievery.

Kate became a good archer because of a whole assult back story, which later was changed over to where she found out her dad was doing some legit awful things and it's just a hodgepodge now of a back story in regard to her past. Yes Kate and Clint are both great archers because of their skills, but bear in mind that both were doing archery long before Eli was doing any fighting at all.

i was using Kate as contrast because she's self-made. i don't think people would like Kate if she had gotten her magnificent aim from MGH. and i think people might like Patriot if he started training himself after being assaulted. the more i think about it, I'm not sure why anyone would like Eli. he's kind of a born loser; descendant of a crippled WWII hero who did drugs, lost leadership of his team, and got friendzoned by his replacement. and that was all before simply quitting.

[Michael Watkins]

And add in the fact we just had Secret Wars where 2 universes merged.

History got rewritten to fit Miles in and no one asks a question about it.

So couldn't Eli get a clean slate?

to do so would be to erase his history with the team, wouldn't it? I'm surprised that they didn't put David Alleyne into the Patriot costume; already.

[Michael Watkins]

double post, sorry

[Darkspellmaster]

And add in the fact we just had Secret Wars where 2 universes merged.

History got rewritten to fit Miles in and no one asks a question about it.

So couldn't Eli get a clean slate?

That is a good point too. We now have a Leah running around in Angela from the Wall, Cassie kind of got a clean slate, as does Doom right now. Tony got a pass with all that insanity he wrought, and with Miles being brought in and some what with Spiderman 2099 as well. I just don't get the idea of leaving him in the dust given that all his fellow team mates seem to be coming back into their own.

that's kind of my point. they were created as an answer to Young Justice; instead of a writer having a great idea for a young hero team and pitching it to Marvel. the team was dictated to Heinberg by Brian Michael Bendis (by some accounts). and they were introduced as idolizing the Avengers; although that quickly changed after they encountered Iron Man. it's why Billy was 'Asgardian.'

I thought that Billy got that name as a joke, and I thought that Alan had the idea first and brought it up to them, not that they approached him. And even if they were a answer to YJ, they still stuck a strong enough cord that several of the members are now being used all over the place. They tried with Secret avengers and that failed, Avengers Academy did okay but ran into issues due to cross over crap and the like, but YA managed to stand out enough that people keep wanting to use the characters. So there has to be some good coming from that factor. Except for Eli.

no. she clearly stated that she had been 'borrowing' particles from her dad. the heart transplant is how her powers were removed; recently.

Right right, from the first issue it was indicated about that, when she was talking to Kate and the others on the way to the mansion. But wasn't she first exposed to that when she was with her dad at the Avengers mansion and that was sort of what was causing some issues between Scott and his ex wife?

I understand. it's just unfortunate because of stereotypes about drug use. and I call it "cheating" in contrast to Kate Bishop; who simply trained enough to eventually become the leader of the team. it instantly makes Eli seem unqualified.

But if that's the case then we have to disqualify most former addicts that lead teams, Tony top among them and he's been leader of the Avengers for years while suffering from the issues that he's had. And Roy was head of the Titans and the Outsiders at DC, and then there's Hal Jordan who went crazy and is still seen as leader of the Green Lantern corpse. Eli could very well move up in the training area, and he did after he quit the drugs, but Marvel didn't seem to want to explore it the same way that Roy got the chance to.

Rogue was introduced as a villain. and they gave her Ms.Marvel's powers permanently, in part, to make sure that she wasn't reliant on power-thievery.

She still technically is a power thief, none of the powers she has, or has kept, came from her own skills. She just takes them on as per her need to use. Yes she kept Carol's powers, along with things from Rom Space Knight, but she stole them first and caused Carol a lot of trouble from that in the first place.

i was using Kate as contrast because she's self-made. i don't think people would like Kate if she had gotten her magnificent aim from MGH. and i think people might like Patriot if he started training himself after being assaulted. the more i think about it, I'm not sure why anyone would like Eli. he's kind of a born loser; descendant of a crippled WWII hero who did drugs, lost leadership of his team, and got friendzoned by his replacement. and that was all before simply quitting.

People liked Kate more because she came off as an arrow wielding Tony stark type at first, something that had not been seen in a while since, at the time, there wasn't a lot of super heroines that were "bad ass normal" or weren't a "Mutant" other then Spider-girl. So she and Cassie came at a point in time where there was a need for teen female supers from Marvel. Right now if Kate came out after Kamala, I'm not sure if she would have as big of a fan base as she does due to the fact that there's a few more females out there that stand out more. I wouldn't say Eli's a born loser, he wasn't in a place that was exactly perfect -that's like saying Peter's a born loser, he's really not, um, i'm not sure why you're pointing out the issues with his grandfather, yes he lost leadership of his team but he wasn't exactly the leader at the start either, that was Iron Lad, and Kate friendzoned Noh Varr and probably will break the hearts of a lot of other male characters in the future.

As for David getting to wear the patriot suit, no, that's BS, and believe me the X-men fans of his wouldn't stand for it.

[JediKage]

Its not about being an addict. Tony is an addict but he is a Super Genius. That is not a cheat.

Well also Kate unlike even Wiccan was always pretty perfect besides Boy Drama. Wiccan just never pays for his mistakes. Never takes the blame either. Kate doesn't really screw up at all. Maybe she does in hawkeye I haven't followed it. Eli on the other hand was a militant brother, who got saddled with cheating on his powers, being overly righteous, quitting and taking all the blame for screw ups. Then got friendzoned by Kate (hate the term) and got removed as leader for her. So basically he was constantly diminished to prop up mostly Wiccan and Kate.

[Fokken]

Wiccan just never pays for his mistakes. Never takes the blame either. .

[Smoov-E]

Thanks for posting a pic that shows Wiccan does indeed never pay for his mistakes and has even semi reformed villains go out of their way to make excuses for him

Kudos

[JediKage]

Lol yeah I say he suffer a consequence if he actually shot himself and Loki brought him back.

See here is the difference. Ignoring the fact that I don't think Eli should miss a short range arrow shot at Dr. Doom. He has the Super Soldier Serum and can throw a shield with great accuracy. Eli didn't fix his mistakes and didn't have people making excuses for him. Wiccan always does in story and from the fandom at large.

[Kasper Cole]

Just like they did with his uncle.

Yeah, there hasn't been a mention of any of the Bradley Family....

Isaiah hasn't been acknowledged in any of the Captain America Anniversary stuff.

[DuskHarlekin]

We can throw Night Thrasher in there as well. And yeah those are all mutants on the first list.

He is in Contest of Champions.

[Fokken]

I rescind my intended post.

[Kieran_Frost]

Hmmm....I've haven't seen the level of shade thrown at Wiccan or Cassie that Eli gets.

You must not have seen the thread for every Young Avengers issue (and corresponding threads) when Gillen's run was out. Wiccan maybe in Ewing's run, but he's not anywhere close to the protagonist now, so the hate is less. The hate is always strongest when you're doing well. When he was happily tucked into a supporting role in the first volume there was no hate, move him to prominence in Children's Crusade or Gillen's run = the river of rage runs strong. (also there is some A-grade hate being thrown around in this thread for him; so = lol).

Even so, that hasn't stopped any writer from using those characters.

True, but that's really two separate issues; the predominant one being if Marvel ever wants to push an LGBT character to a prominent role, Wiccan and Hulkling are almost their only option. They won't push an X-man, and that cuts out 80% of the LGBT characters that had ever mattered.