Jon Kent aka "Superboy": DC's Franklin Richards??

[Superlad93]

That's a very interesting perspective and comparison of where DC might be going with Jon. Definitely wouldn't mind seeing the dynamic of having a Superboy who is also the biological son of Superman in the DCU explored in this type of manner. The potential is there, it's just whether DC can actually achieve it.

Thank you. This perspective is basically my whole reason for making the thread. It's funny, but I find my little theory substantiated most by DC's own words. From Jurgens words to descriptions of books to come, more and more I'm starting to think that's where they're going. Now granted, I'm approaching this to the surefootedness of a newborn deer, but slowly I'm thinking it's true. Figures crossed!

[The Shredder]

I gotta disagree on this one. If this is circa-President Luthor post-Crisis Superman, the MOS origin is still firmly intact and thus he's significantly weaker. A permanent augmentation of his strength and strong Silver Age reintroductions to the mythos had not taken place yet. I don't think this Superman has topped the idea of bench-pressing the equivalent weight of a planet, for instance. Unless I'm missing some key details (always possible), New 52 Superman should be significantly more powerful.

You're missing some details. Superman, very shortly following the President Luthor/Public Enemies storyline, like a few issues maybe, and prior to Infinite Crisis, which I assume is what you were referring to with the 'strong Silver Age reintroductions to the mythos had not taken place yet' comment, was still shown to be quite powerful. Example? Like wiping out a army of imperfect Doomsday clones in 1 blast (which were stated as being almost as strong as original).

I suppose his best strength feat in Post Crisis is moving Mageddon, which is described as being half the size of an entire solar system. Yes, he did this by himself, and this was during the late 1990's/early 2000's JLA days.

[The Shredder]

Thank you. This perspective is basically my whole reason for making the thread. It's funny, but I find my little theory substantiated most by DC's own words. From Jurgens words to descriptions of books to come, more and more I'm starting to think that's where they're going. Now granted, I'm approaching this to the surefootedness of a newborn deer, but slowly I'm thinking it's true. Figures crossed!

Believe me, I know how you feel. I've made it no secret how jaded I've become as a reader due to my disappointment of DC's product, but am, currently atleast, optimistic about what might be going forward with REBIRTH.

[Ascended]

I gotta disagree on this one. If this is circa-President Luthor post-Crisis Superman, the MOS origin is still firmly intact and thus he's significantly weaker. A permanent augmentation of his strength and strong Silver Age reintroductions to the mythos had not taken place yet. I don't think this Superman has topped the idea of bench-pressing the equivalent weight of a planet, for instance. Unless I'm missing some key details (always possible), New 52 Superman should be significantly more powerful.

Its hard to figure out, really. Supposedly Superdad has his entire history intact, from 1986 Man of Steel to Grounded and Reign of Doomsday. But there's really nothing that indicates the back half of post-Crisis is being referenced or used at all; its like pretty much everything after the wedding is being ignored. Given what a mess that last decade was, its for the best, but it does leave a big question about Superdad's actual power level, which is being screwed with in L&C anyway.

New52 Superman is pretty badass. He's literally a planet pusher and can survive in space without aid. Post-Crisis, he never really hit those levels....except for the handful of times he did.

For instance, I'd say wrestling a king angel to a standstill, while shrugging off his "penance stare" is arguably up there with the best of the 52's feats. Half the crap that happened in Superman Beyond would be up there too. And Superdad did take the last swings that brought down Superboy Prime (though Prime had already been through a hell of a beating).

I think that, baseline, New52 is certainly stronger (post-Lobdell). But Superdad has feats that equal it, you just didnt see that very often.

While the truth is writers make Superman (or any character) as powerful as the story needs them to be, and in time Nuperman's power levels would end up just as convoluted, we might have to reason it out that Superdad is capable of digging into reserves of power he normally can't access, like some sort of "emergency tank" as it were. And New52 has either never needed to be that much stronger than usual, or doesnt have an "emergency tank" at all. Given the differences in how their powers originated, its possible that Superdad's biology allows for that while 52's doesnt.

But really, the difference is that Superdad had fifteen-twenty years for writers to mess around with his power level that Superman hasn't had.

Yet?

EDIT: One thing I do think is that Nuperman is smarter than Superdad. Superdad was a pretty smart guy when the writers remembered it and didnt write him like a hick, but on an intellectual level I dont think he was written (on average) as being as smart as Nuperman. I dont recall post-Crisis Lex ever talking about how Superdad was his only intellectual equal, for example.

[Ascended]

As for Jon....I honestly dont think DC could handle him being on anything close to Franklin's level. Hell, Marvel cant really handle that either, outside of a handful of creators who have really made it work.

But I would be very much down with putting Jon squarely in a Silver Age variation, with all the extra powers you'd expect. Just, please, update the powers. I've no need for the likes of Super-ESP or Super-Juggling to return.

[Prime]

Superdad really let his other kid down. Poor Chris. Anyway I feel like DC is trying to shove Jon down our throat.

[Sacred Knight]

Again, the problem is that his introduction requires stepping on the toes of others. When that happens, you get resentment from your fanbase. Forcing him immediately as some unbelievable badass of power won't do any favors. Be gradual with it and let the character earn the goodwill of fans before pushing something like that. Or in the event that he doesn't catch on at all, understand that as well.

[Prime]

Again, the problem is that his introduction requires stepping on the toes of others. When that happens, you get resentment from your fanbase.

Well I Was right then. They ARE shoving him down our throats. I would have preferred if it was WW Ns SM son from another timeline or something.

[Sacred Knight]

Its not about whose son he is to me. Its just the fact that his introduction is taking place during a storyline in which the main Superman is being replaced for a while, and on top of that he's going to be using the name of an already beloved (albeit lately maligned) character. That sort of double whammy requires care. I'm not saying he can't be pushed if they want to try and make him popular, they can do what they want, just be careful how you do it unless you want the complete opposite reaction.

[Flash Gordon]

Our Superman wrestled 10,000 angels on Mars and fought off the Multitude. He's no joke.

Honestly "Doomed" shouldn't have even been a big storyline for him.

[Doctor Bifrost]

What's the proof adding a child to an existing series helps it sales wise?

I'm having trouble seeing your point. I understand how thoroughly you dislike this, and you're entitled. I'm not too crazy about it myself, from what I've heard so far.

But there's no "proof" and no "disproof" either way. Nobody knows what will sell and what won't. Franklin Richards was not the reason the FF was cancelled - and even if he were, he, and they, had a long run. You could say "readers don't like kid heroes anymore" or you could say "readers finally got bored with him after 48 years." You don't know if it's one, or the other, or something else. If SuperJon gets a 48 year run, DC will be very happy.

Damian's quite popular - although, again, there is no way for anyone to tell whether Batman sells better because of him, or would sell better with some other Robin in position - it's all hypothetical and it's not like you can run science experiments on it in which you switch up the variables.

And Shazam/Captain Marvel is a confusing comparison. He's not even a kid in superhero form. He's not at all the same kind of character as SuperJon.

Clearly, someone - probably several someones - at DC wants to create stories about Superman and Lois Lane as parents, and their son as a budding superhero. They like it; they think it's interesting. They believe many readers will too. And they convinced TPTB.

As for me? I'm not big on Franklin Richards, who seemed to me (back when I was reading Marvel) to be nothing but a deus ex machina incarnated as a pretty boring kid. I like Damian Wayne (or Damian Wayne-like characters) as an older teenager or young adult in an Elseworlds or an alternate future, but not as a 10-year-old fixture in Batman's current, in-continuity stories - I think he makes Bruce Wayne look like a weak character and a poor father. And nothing I've read about SuperJon suggests to me that he's the kind of character I've been yearning to read about.

But I know that my opinions are not shared by all readers, and I don't pretend they predict sales. I don't know of anything that does a very good job of predicting sales - you only get to know about them in retrospect. And even then it's hard to really know what aspects of a winning or failing series (character, editorial decision) worked, and what didn't.

But that's just me.

[GodofBoredom]

New 52 Superman is significantly stronger.

Bench pressing the Earth for 5 days without the sun and barely working a sweat is far, far above post-Crisis Superman.

The latter needed help and even so, was barely able to move celestial bodies.

Remember Terror Incognita, where he has to move the moon alongside Diana and Kyle? The moon has 100 times less mass than Earth, and he was still struggling like crazy.

Remember when the water on Earth was teleported and he had to sustain the Earth in orbit? He had Diana and Martian Manhunter's help and he was failing, if not for kyle.

etc.

Post Crisis Superman was never strong enough to be a planet mover on his own.

By comparison, New 52 Superman stopped Brainiac's ship which was, like, Jupiter in size. Yes, it was alongside J'onn (who was on fire), but even if he supplemented 50% of the strength, that's still far above what Post Crisis Superman is capable of.

With that said, the Superman with Jon and Lois is much older now (like, half a decade), and his power fluctuations notwithstanding, he should be much more powerful than he was before (but even that might not be as strong as New 52 Superman).

[Kuwagaton]

That's a good point. Like how Earth 2 Superman was "roughly even" with Earth 1 with an advanced age, and how Scott Snyder worked from a similar idea with Wraith.

Post-Crisis Superman wildly varied in power level and it's hard to put down just where he stands now, as his power levels are as shaky as ever. But he looked good in Convergence and when he's back in the spotlight he'll look better.

Our Superman wrestled 10,000 angels on Mars and fought off the Multitude. He's no joke.

Sounds impressive until you remember how it went down, lol

[JackDaw]

I'd recommend Hickman's run, but I if I remember right your issues with characters like Franklin are more rooted in how big company comics are made, so there's that.

As a character and as a enhancer to Reed I think he's fantastic. Again Hickman's run as all about the sins of the father and the good son who must correct them because they'd like to keep their father. It was an awful cycle that Nathaniel and Reed had been apart of, so Franklin breaks it and gives Reed the emotional tools needed to save us all in Secret Wars

I think exploring how a child is both it's own person, and an enhancer for their parent would be fantastic for Superman the man of tomorrow.



I like it when Superman is "top dog" but in no way do I think it's an absolute.

I meant to reply before, but in my usual shambolic way didn't.

I probably will end up reading the Jonathan Hickman FF run sometime...FF are characters I like (apart from Reed), and quite like the few JH comics I've read. But two main factors put me off.

First, you're right that certain aspects of mainstream super hero comics have irked me progressively over the years. I still read a few each year...but to be frank it's usually when a favourite writer gets to do a long run on D or E status character...where the writer is actually free to do as they like (well as much as that ever happens in mainstream comics).

Second...I actually got first two trades out of library. Enjoyed them...thought they were good but not "wow mega good". So i looked at views on Marvel boards to see if series got better or worse as it progressed...and I think consensus was that first part of series was as good as it gets.

But one day I'll relent...and may well sometime in future say something like "good rec".

[Darkspellmaster]

I think you're spot on, myself. In fact, this is one of the very few saving graces I can see for Superdad; the chance to explore Superman as a father within continuity.

I noticed that bit in the solicits about Jon being more than Clark can handle too. And it makes me wonder.

Post-Crisis, Clark didnt come into his powers until he was a teenager. Jon however, is hitting his at a much younger age, despite being half-human. Is that the only difference? Or is Jon going to be that much more powerful than his father? If so, will it just be a matter of having the same powerset but on a higher scale, or is Jon going to be tapping into some crazy Silver Age powers as well? For myself, I hope they do go a little "Franklin Richards" with this and make Jon stupid powerful. Not on Franklin's level, but I'd like to see some Silver Age rubbed into all this.

A thought on the power situation for Jon. He was born technically on earth, even if it was in a nexus like setting, and because of that I would think that he would be affected by earth's pull and sun since he's more human then Clark. However it could mean also that, because he's affected by the earth in a different way he HAS to be more powerful due to the earth's pull on him and the different make up of his biology. I honestly think that on top of it being from the Multiverse, one could say that the Earth is affecting him as well. I agree it would be great to see some silver age moments in there.

Gohan huh? Yeah i guess so. Too bad Toriyama screwed him over. :/

I was very sad about that. He deserved his time to shine.

No... funny enough given this topic, Toriyama tried, but it was the fans who wanted more Goku.

Yeah, but he didn't have to listen. They would have bought it anyway.

Regarding Gohan, ultimately what it came down to was the Publishers of Weekly Shonen jump pulling the same s*** that is pulled here in the states. Basically they told him you have to keep Goku because the fans demand it, the show is making money, it's a cash cow, and it's because of this attitude that he didn't want to write anymore of the story until recently. Gohan is getting more to shine with recently and with the new series and movies coming out it makes things easier for different characters. Same thing happened with Trunks and a bit with Goten.

My money's on something to do with the Multiverse. The child was born at a nexus point in the Multiverse, and is by all rights a miracle in that he's born of two incompatible creatures.

I don't wanna jump the gun and say he'll be reality warping like Franklin, but one has to wonder how you can put Clark Kent aka Superman in the same awestruck, and unprepared position as Jonathan Kent was.

So he's sort of like a good version of Superboy prime?

I look forward to seeing Jon's adventures with his dad as well as his misadventures with Damian Wayne.

Same here, I'm hoping DC will allow for a few more of the younger sets to come out and play.

DC's bread and butter is partly kid heroes. It doesn't have to be realistic. It's all a power fantasy for kids. It's also why young adult books sell so yell. People want to see the child underdog rise up and beat the evil in the world. Those types of stories have been around far before comics came about.

There's been quiet a few, dating back to really Sherlock Holmes with the Baker Street Irrgulars helping him out with some cases. I don't see the complaints towards the Marvel set as much as towards DC over this.