The Mighty Thor Appreciation

[JKtheMac]

Less so than saying she was never the one acting the hero in the first place.

The analogy to Blake here is flawed because Blake WAS Thor. JMS' ridiculous notions notwithstanding, Blake was simply Thor with a brain wipe.

The same is the reverse in Jane's case. The woman with the hammer IS Jane. Just like when Captain America picks it up he is still Steve Rogers with the power of Thor.

Except originally Blake was a human and Thor was a separate entity until Kirby and Lee retconned it and then effectively Roy Thomas retconned it back that way again so officially you are wrong Blake was never Thor. Or technically there was a human called Blake that was never Thor but did lift the hammer once and once only, and thereafter a facsimile of Blake that was only ever Thor.

And until we see otherwise (and Damnation doesn’t suggest we will see otherwise) Jane was never technically the same entity as Thor the Goddess. I doubt very much the Damnation writers would have been allowed to have Jane and female Thor as two separate souls unless somebody signed off on the idea. This could very well be the most clear sign yet that my long standing predictions are correct.

[JKtheMac]

I have no idea, or if Valhalla even exists in the Marvel Universe this week, for that matter!

It has been prominent over the last few years. Most recently in Fearless Defenders where Annabelle Riggs went to Valhalla. So yes women can go there and have done so in canon.

Indeed if people think Aaron's mythology has a wry slant on gender, Fearless defenders had the maidens in Valhalla trying to tempt her into a pillow fight at bedtime.

Fearless Defenders was by no means the best Marvel take on Norse myth but it is well worth exploring. I found most of it enjoyable.

[JKtheMac]

And Jane can easily be brought back as early as issue #706. All Odin has to do is say "do you want to be a Valkyrie?"

To address this directly, it isn't totally clear if there is a vacancy.

Current Valkyrior are:

Valkyrie
Annabelle Riggs (currently sharing a body with Valkyrie)
Misty Knight
Dani Moonstar
Hippolyta
Clea strange
Elsa Bloodstone
Ren Kimura
Frankie Ray / Nova (hired but shown in a hero shot with the rest towards the end)

So that makes a full compliment of nine if you don't count Valkyrie and Annabelle as one, and they don't think of themselves as one. Pretty sure most of these wouldn't be chosen by Odin, but they were selected outside of his reign so he didn't get a say.

[brettc1]

Except originally Blake was a human and Thor was a separate entity until Kirby and Lee retconned it and then effectively Roy Thomas retconned it back that way again so officially you are wrong Blake was never Thor. Or technically there was a human called Blake that was never Thor but did lift the hammer once and once only, and thereafter a facsimile of Blake that was only ever Thor.

And until we see otherwise (and Damnation doesn’t suggest we will see otherwise) Jane was never technically the same entity as Thor the Goddess. I doubt very much the Damnation writers would have been allowed to have Jane and female Thor as two separate souls unless somebody signed off on the idea. This could very well be the most clear sign yet that my long standing predictions are correct.

I will need evidence that Lee and Kirby originally envisaged Blake as a seperate being.

Never read Damnation so can't speak to it. But Odon gives all the credit for beating Mangog to Jane, not some other being who just got created out of nothing.

[JKtheMac]

I will need evidence that Lee and Kirby originally envisaged Blake as a seperate being.

Never read Damnation so can't speak to it. But Odon gives all the credit for beating Mangog to Jane, not some other being who just got created out of nothing.

For evidence I would urge you to read just about any history of the character and indeed the actual comics. It’s pretty obvious. Especially if one also reads the Kirby Captain Marvel comics (only one of which he is credited for because of moonlighting concerns).

Sadly there isn’t a definitve history. Maybe I should write one.

All the credit does go to Jane. Even Thor said that herself. She sacrificed herself.

[brettc1]

For evidence I would urge you to read just about any history of the character and indeed the actual comics. It’s pretty obvious.

Sadly there isn’t a definitve history. Maybe I should write one.

All the credit does go to Jane. Even Thor said that herself. She sacrificed herself.

Thor is a himself. Jane is Jane.

I've read the issues but its beholden of the person making the assertion to provide the evidence. If you can't provide links to back your own statements I will take them with a few grains of salt. Quotes from Lee or Kirby?

[JKtheMac]

Thor is a himself. Jane is Jane.

I've read the issues but its beholden of the person making the assertion to provide the evidence. If you can't provide links to back your own statements I will take them with a few grains of salt. Quotes from Lee or Kirby?

It is a very involved story and I have better things to do than educate every time this issue comes up. Which is approximately once per month on these forums. Go read up on Kirby if you want to understand how Thor came about. The info is available if you are really interested. I am only beholden to demonstrate something if I want to. I believe there is even an article about it on CBR still, and plenty of articles in the Jack Kirby Collector. This is a matter of history and common knowledge not some crazy theory. It is infeasible to me that anyone reading the early JitM comics can come away believing that Blake was always supposed to be Thor in disguise - that the Kirby Lee retcon was actually always the plan.

Canon-wise just go read the Roy Thomas retcon. It points out very clearly that Blake was a real human and that story hasn’t been retconned. This is a separate issue as it is not seeking to revert the first retcon, just utterly change it.

[brettc1]

It is a very involved story and I have better things to do than educate every time this issue comes up. Which is approximately once per month on these forums. Go read up on Kirby if you want to understand how Thor came about. The info is available if you are really interested. I am only beholden to demonstrate something if I want to. I believe there is even an article about it on CBR still, and plenty of articles in the Jack Kirby Collector. This is a matter of history and common knowledge not some crazy theory. It is infeasible to me that anyone reading the early JitM comics can come away believing that Blake was always supposed to be Thor in disguise - that the Kirby Lee retcon was actually always the plan.

Canon-wise just go read the Roy Thomas retcon. It points out very clearly that Blake was a real human and that story hasn’t been retconned. This is a separate issue as it is not seeking to revert the first retcon, just utterly change it.

the real Journey into Mystery for me us how can anyone read those early stories and NOT see that Blake must turn out to be Thor, because right from the outset it sets up the question of how did the hammer get into the cave and where WAS Thor in the meantime?

A statement without evidence is barely a theory.

[JKtheMac]

the real Journey into Mystery for me us how can anyone read those early stories and NOT see that Blake must turn out to be Thor, because right from the outset it sets up the question of how did the hammer get into the cave and where WAS Thor in the meantime?

A statement without evidence is barely a theory.

Well so be it. My 'barely less than a theory' goes down with every other thing that people try and deny about history.

Surely if you have read things before #158 and after it you noticed the total tonal shift in the stories? How suddenly everything was about humility and worthiness, because they had just decided that was what the book was now.

[brettc1]

Well so be it. My 'barely less than a theory' goes down with every other thing that people try and deny about history.

Surely if you have read things before #158 and after it you noticed the total tonal shift in the stories? How suddenly everything was about humility and worthiness, because they had just decided that was what the book was now.

What I notice is that almost from the beginning there were inconsistencies in the story that either Lee and Kirby either planned for or quickly recognized. Within a few issues of having the hammer Thor recognizes Loki as his brother and beseeches his father, Odin, for help. And yet in the very first issue he is still very much thinking of himself in terms of being Donald Blake with the power of Thor.

But you can't retcon something that hasn't been clearly established in the first place. And ultimately it all leads to this...





Blake is Thor. And in the same way, Jane is Jane. There is no separate personality, which is why in the battle with Mangog we see that Jane's memories helping her in the battle and Jane's face under the helm when she says goodbye.

Oh, and look what he calls her...

[JKtheMac]

If you want to understand how Thor slowly coalesced into the retcon you have to do more than look for inconsistencies in the mythic references you have to pay attention to how Tales of Asgard influenced the main story.

Also continually saying Blake is Thor is meaningless in the context of canon. Read Roy Thomas and Fraction. Blake is human and not Thor he is NEVER Thor. After lifting the hammer for the first time he stays in limbo in that cave until he was killed. The Blake we see after that first tap of the walking stick is not real he’s a facsimile that Fraction eventually writes out of the story. Continuity is stupid and crazy but that’s the canon.

We don’t get to pretend this stuff was never written. Even if it is stupid.

[brettc1]

If you want to understand how Thor slowly coalesced into the retcon you have to do more than look for inconsistencies in the mythic references you have to pay attention to how Tales of Asgard influenced the main story.

Also continually saying Blake is Thor is meaningless in the context of canon. Read Roy Thomas and Fraction. Blake is human and not Thor he is NEVER Thor. After lifting the hammer for the first time he stays in limbo in that cave until he was killed. The Blake we see after that first tap of the walking stick is not real he’s a facsimile that Fraction eventually writes out of the story. Continuity is stupid and crazy but that’s the canon.

We don’t get to pretend this stuff was never written. Even if it is stupid.

Nothing on this?



Hmmm.

As for the rest - screw it. I survived the stupidity of Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman and her being Superman's girlfriend just by being prepared to outlast it. Blake was Thor, Jane is Jane. Hell, in a decade we will probably find out he wasn't really unworthy at all and that was never actually Mjolnir that Jane was swinging. Fury pulled some kind of sleight of hand while Thor was distracted by his meaningless whisper.

Yeah, it could happen. LOL

[JKtheMac]

Nothing on this?

That's a trivial issue. We know that Jane is in that scene too, in the early stories we got to hear her own thoughts as the other personality was to the fore. It doesn't stop Thor the Goddess of thunder being a separate entity. That's how gods work, they are created by the imagination of humans.

[brettc1]

That's a trivial issue. We know that Jane is in that scene too, in the early stories we got to hear her own thoughts as the other personality was to the fore. It doesn't stop Thor the Goddess of thunder being a separate entity. That's how gods work, they are created by the imagination of humans.

Even in the MU I don't think that's been true for quite some time. And in the case of Thor himself manifestly not the case.

[Daniel22]

Predictions on how we find Thor in issue #706? Are we going to see her escape the star immediately, will she already be free and we will get the story later...
I'm predicting a "a short time later" situation in which Thor is free of the star and Mangog but we don't know exactly how yet.