Are you guys ok with Bats and WW having keys to the Fortress?

[hellacre]

I find it so funny though...with all Bruce's "preparations" HE is often the reason why the crap hits the fan from his protocols Talia stole to Brother Eye. And him not sharing was usually part of the problem. Again I ask who keeps Batman on his toes? Why do writers assume Batman has to be the moral authority here? It's insulting to the others imo. Citing Clark and Diana are powerful and deserve that...this is the DCU...it is a universe that has many metas and Gods running around. That makes no sense to me. He should have contingencies for his crazy foes and even Lex and other metas then. It's writers who often have Bruce behave like the arrogant dick and not even admit how wrong he is/was to not share his plans. The idea Clark docilely accepts keeping the whole thing secret does not make it any better. In last canon Clark was angry Bruce had stuff behind the others backs. I don't like how DC rarely has Clark not standing up to Bruce especially when it is something he would not do or just accepting Bruce talking to him as if he is a child. The constant finger wagging would piss me off.

I think while Bruce will not abuse Clark's trust ...least I hope not...but you never know with his mental state...chances are just giving it over, there is a risk that someone else could get hold of the key. But Clark is always at risk of one day never coming back after a battle so it makes sense he gives someone a key. So really as far as it backfiring...it wouldn't be anyone's fault unlike the contingency plans etc. Bruce and Diana need to simply be as careful and not share that they have a key with anyone else. I mean it's not like if Clark's FOS was never breached before and it was not their fault. Look at Zod breaking out his cell and messing around for example. Threats can come from other places too. As others have said apart from a key, other security measures could also be put in place as well.

[Mr. Mastermind]

She knew it was going on and APPROVED of it.

If the real Diana hears about something like that? Trust me, she'll stop it.

Has Diana heard of what's going on in North Korea yet? Or is she a fan of concentration camps?

Show, don't tell. Basic rule of visual entertainment. You learn that in Writing 101.

Red Son is a comic that stars Superman and Lex Luthor, not Batman and Wonder Woman. There is a limit to how much you can put in an issue and Batman attacking WW would not have built any character or interesting story or amped up the political themes in any way.

Again, it's not hard to believe that Batman could have got help from Lex Luthor.

Because if they complained, they would be dragged off and lobotomized.

Actually Superman could hear all human beings complaints and they never complained about Superman's rule whatsoever. 99.99% of people were very happy with Superman's reign. That's why SUperman gained control of almost every country in the world, because he created a utopia that people wanted to be a part of.

I sure as hell wouldn't. I damn sure wouldn't surrender my entire existence to some douchebag in a costume. I'm betting a LOT of people would refuse to give up their free will.

I'm not talking about Superman's reign here, I'm talking about a hypothetical paradise where the government controls everything. You'd rather people all around the world suffer and die for completely unfair reasons so you can keep a sense of freedom? You'd much rather the world be an unhappy free place than a happy communist world?

Of course, that paradise can never exist in the world, and freedom is almost always preferable but the point still stands. (and no country in the world has complete freedom anyway)

He lobotomized "terrorists" by his definition of the word. I believe "dissidents and malcontents" were also listed among the villains.

So just people who spoke out against him and weren't happy with the current situation. You know? Because Freedom of Speech. Who needs that, right?

That was a morally wrong action, but it's understandable considering it was to protect the 99% happily living in a Communist paradise anyway.

So, I take it you never read Watchmen then?

[Vanguard-01]

Has Diana heard of what's going on in North Korea yet? Or is she a fan of concentration camps?

Diana just saved a bunch of hostages in Khandaq with Superman, and the whole world flipped their shit over it.

DC doesn't WANT Diana, or anyone else, fixing the world's real problems.

She still doesn't express her APPROVAL over North Korea's concentration camps. She doesn't DEFEND Kim Jong Un's decisions like Commie WW did.

Red Son is a comic that stars Superman and Lex Luthor, not Batman and Wonder Woman. There is a limit to how much you can put in an issue and Batman attacking WW would not have built any character or interesting story or amped up the political themes in any way.

It just occurred to me. The writer didn't even "tell" us how Batman took her down.

He didn't "show" OR "tell." He just showed us WW tied up on her knees in front of Batman. That's it. One speech bubble where Batman explains "Luthor gave me some cool stuff to take her down" and there wouldn't be an issue here.

Nope! Just accept that a powerless moron took down the most powerful woman in comics because reasons.

Again, it's not hard to believe that Batman could have got help from Lex Luthor.

Actually Superman could hear all human beings complaints and they never complained about Superman's rule whatsoever. 99.99% of people were very happy with Superman's reign. That's why SUperman gained control of almost every country in the world, because he created a utopia that people wanted to be a part of.

Really? 99.99%? That's an actual figure from the actual comic?

There were dissidednts. There were people who didn't agree with him. And those people disappeared and were mutilated against their will FOR their disagreement.

I'm not talking about Superman's reign here, I'm talking about a hypothetical paradise where the government controls everything. You'd rather people all around the world suffer and die for completely unfair reasons so you can keep a sense of freedom? You'd much rather the world be an unhappy free place than a happy communist world?

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Surrendering our freedom, our right to choose our own path, our control over our own destiny is unacceptable. Because you aren't really "happy" in a world where every choice is made for you. You don't have any other options. What if I don't want chicken for dinner tonight? What if I want steak instead? Too bad. You're getting chicken. A simplistic example? Sure. But there are others.

Of course, that paradise can never exist in the world, and freedom is almost always preferable but the point still stands. (and no country in the world has complete freedom anyway)

I'll take "some freedom" over "no freedom" any day of the week. Six times on Sunday.

That was a morally wrong action, but it's understandable considering it was to protect the 99% happily living in a Communist paradise anyway.

Violating people's brains for the crime of DISAGREEING with you is never acceptable. He could've locked them up in the gulag like every other self-respecting Communist dictator. He could've met with them and heard their grievances and tried to see if MAYBE he could either bring them around or maybe even change things a little in order to make his "utopia" a little more acceptable to them.

He didn't. He chose to commit one of the most heinous atrocities ever conceived in order to "protect" his iron grip on the world's destiny.

So, I take it you never read Watchmen then?

Nope.

Saw the movie, though.

Your point?

[Carabas]

I've never read the vampire Batman Elseworld, but I'm willing to bet good money I wouldn't like IT either.

You should give it a go some time, unles you really can't stand Kelly Jones's artwork. I find it one of the better Elseworlds, and very true to the core of the characters.

It is all about (a version of) regular, vowed to never take a life Bruce Wayne dealing with some changes. Well, he does kill lots and lots of other vampires, not sure if that counts.

[UltraWoman]

OK, is there a chance we can split off the debate about Super(man)God and Bat(man)God? I think the answers to this question posed at the beginning have gotten lost in the debate that is really a side-tangent that has little to do with this topic.

[Superlad93]

If you were trying to make the case that Batman ISN'T being a huge condescending jerk, this is not helping your case.

Making the case for his reasoning. The other post make my case for his friendship with Superman.

Okay. Crazy idea, but work with me here... how about Batman taking that time he's spending spying on Superman and plotting to kill Wonder Woman and instead using it to try and find ways to stop people from just rolling off their cots and walking out Arkham's front doors every Tuesday? And while he's at it, maybe he can spend some time buying out all those abandoned warehouses and science labs and bulldozing them to the ground so villains don't have ready made hideouts all over the city.

So then forget that this is a comic book and villains and conflicts are needed for it to actually happen? Not only that but Batman seems to have the (debatable) most iconic and recognizable villains around. You're basically suggesting that the Joker never come back.......this is a crazy idea no that you think about it....

Breaking the back of comic book logic is fun and all but pointless when you go right back to reading them.

That way, instead of being prepared for when Superman goes nuts and starts killing people, he's ready for the next time an actual SUPERVILLAIN goes nuts and starts killing people.

He should still probably make it a point to be ready when the most powerful creature in the galaxy "goes nuts" or is taken over by something outside of his (Superman's) control.

[Lax]

Making the case for his reasoning. The other post make my case for his friendship with Superman.



So then forget that this is a comic book and villains and conflicts are needed for it to actually happen? Not only that but Batman seems to have the (debatable) most iconic and recognizable villains around. You're basically suggesting that the Joker never come back.......this is a crazy idea no that you think about it....

Breaking the back of comic book logic is fun and all but pointless when you go right back to reading them.



He should still probably make it a point to be ready when the most powerful creature in the galaxy "goes nuts" or is taken over by something outside of his (Superman's) control.

What are your thoughts on Batman deciding he can handle his relationship with Talia without someone making sure she isn't compromising his judgement, yet not extending that same latitude to Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman?

[Superlad93]

What are your thoughts on Batman deciding he can handle his relationship with Talia without someone making sure she isn't compromising his judgement, yet not extending that same latitude to Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman?

Well he's not the guy who can vaporize a city with his eyes. Probably just holds Superman to a higher standard as that's what Superman would like to hold himself to. But there's also his network of bat friends that keep him in check in there own ways. Part of the reason he keeps so many people around him (probably the largest "family" in comics) is to keep him from going off the deep end. He came close when Dick left and Jason died and it took Tim to bring him back. They all have ways to take down Bruce if the need is there. He plans for everything and that includes himself. One of the cool things about Batman that I like.

But anyways I'm really sick of talking about relationships and who my hero is dating and what I should think about it. It's just simply not why I read comics. It's only a small part to something so much larger and fun to me. So if that's where any of this is going I'm done already. I just came in to give another perspective on Batman being friends with Superman among all the dislike he was getting.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Nope.

Saw the movie, though.

Your point?

You completely misunderstood Ozymandias, but then again, the movie did too. But I don't remember him starting WWIII in it, just the actor playing him like a villain when he wasn't one in the book.

I'm not interested in writing long essays so I'm not going to respond to most of your points, but I will say that you don't understand what Communism is. It generally does not involve controlling your eating habits but instead the industry and economy. Theoretically you can still chose what job you want too.

Communism obviously doesn't work, but you're exaggerating its symptoms.

[Lax]

Well he's not the guy who can vaporize a city with his eyes. Probably just holds Superman to a higher standard as that's what Superman would like to hold himself to. But there's also his network of bat friends that keep him in check in there own ways. Part of the reason he keeps so many people around him (probably the largest "family" in comics) is to keep him from going off the deep end. He came close when Dick left and Jason died and it took Tim to bring him back. They all have ways to take down Bruce if the need is there. He plans for everything and that includes himself. One of the cool things about Batman that I like.

I don't know...



... she's a bad, bad girl.

Compromised judgement? I'd be concerned.

But anyways I'm really sick of talking about relationships and who my hero is dating and what I should think about it. It's just simply not why I read comics. It's only a small part to something so much larger and fun to me. So if that's where any of this is going I'm done already. I just came in to give another perspective on Batman being friends with Superman among all the dislike he was getting.

I feel ya.

[Lois]

They need to bring back the Giant Key that only Superman could lift. I don't anyone in the cave beside Superman and Supergirl.

Agree with that too. *winks*
Right now he also trusts Batman and WW.
At the moment he's dating WW in the comics.
The question that pops into my mind is what happens when they have a fight or break up?
She'd lock him out his fortress and not let him back in? LOL
Also liked the comment that DochaDocha said about Superman being angry and not letting Batman back in. *giggles*

[Vanguard-01]

I'm not interested in writing long essays so I'm not going to respond to most of your points, but I will say that you don't understand what Communism is. It generally does not involve controlling your eating habits but instead the industry and economy. Theoretically you can still chose what job you want too.

I'm still not free. I still can't speak my mind. I am still powerless before an unstoppable machine that can squash me like a bug if I step one TOE out of line.

Communism obviously doesn't work, but you're exaggerating its symptoms.

No, I'm saying that Comrade Superman's brand of Communism was monstrous and an insult to everything Superman stands for.

I'm not debating the strengths or weaknesses or symptoms of Communism. I'm saying that lobotomizing people for disagreeing with you is monstrous and in no way worthy of Superman. It's also not worthy of Wonder Woman to have supported these atrocities.

[hellacre]

Agree with that too. *winks*
Right now he also trusts Batman and WW.
At the moment he's dating WW in the comics.
The question that pops into my mind is what happens when they have a fight or break up?
She'd lock him out his fortress and not let him back in? LOL
Also liked the comment that DochaDocha said about Batman being angry and not letting Batman back in. *giggles*

I have an image of Shazam finding that key and Billy having a field day inside.

Diana will simply hand over his key. She's never been into drama queen stuff. It's likely Clark will still trust her that he lets her keep it. I don't see Clark and Diana even if they break up being enemies. He still trusts Lana a hell of a lot for example. And in old canon Diana was not the girlfriend but he had a high level of trust for her. Told her his secret very early for example. It's more about who these people are as people is why he trusts them than whether he dates them or not.