Hyperion Appreciation

[Baron of Faltine]

what does that even mean? Nighthawk's mission was to go after threats that the current heroes had overlooked. People want to paint him as the bad guy when was one of the characters who didn't cross the line. If they had listened, they would know about the Myriad. And they would know that, according to the vision, Hyperion was going to attempt another takeover of the world. the characters are being judged by an unrealistic standard. The Atlanteans, from a street-level perspective, are a threat to the surface dwelling populace. The Squadron acted on that Intel. And they were crucified for it.

DO We want to do this again? Ok Then.
They were not judged for unrealistic standard, but for the destruction of a whole city withou if and but. With glee even. Now i think that part of the story would have been the Squadron coming to term to the fact that they kind of OVER REACTED(in real world term would be a parallel to the decimation of a whole nation for the crime of their governants even if the common people had no choice about...something that had happened oh so many times in history that humankind had filled book and books about it) but alas it had gone in a very uneven andn unconvincing way, going way too far in presenting the SS as the most unpleasant unlikely impossibler to empathize characters I had ever seen on printed paper since Authority.
Since then there was the usuallly jobbing classic character to make them look better more skilled than they were(nighthawk bordered godbatman level at times). Street level perspective is 9 out 10 time NOT quite right and is very dangerous to act upon it(usually when happened ended up in genocide or civil war or great economical disasters) and heroes should know better, at least those who are smart. But smart and Squadron Supreme are not words you find together very often It is a fact. They come out looking bad guy. Uberpowerfull bullies who do as they please to whoever they please. They are not gods , heroes or else. Just Bullies.
We could then talk about why the punisher behaviour work only for the punisher and only for him, but that is more proper for an ol good Frank thread.

[XPac]

DO We want to do this again? Ok Then.
They were not judged for unrealistic standard, but for the destruction of a whole city withou if and but. With glee even. Now i think that part of the story would have been the Squadron coming to term to the fact that they kind of OVER REACTED(in real world term would be a parallel to the decimation of a whole nation for the crime of their governants even if the common people had no choice about...something that had happened oh so many times in history that humankind had filled book and books about it) but alas it had gone in a very uneven andn unconvincing way, going way too far in presenting the SS as the most unpleasant unlikely impossibler to empathize characters I had ever seen on printed paper since Authority.
Since then there was the usuallly jobbing classic character to make them look better more skilled than they were(nighthawk bordered godbatman level at times). Street level perspective is 9 out 10 time NOT quite right and is very dangerous to act upon it(usually when happened ended up in genocide or civil war or great economical disasters) and heroes should know better, at least those who are smart. But smart and Squadron Supreme are not words you find together very often It is a fact. They come out looking bad guy. Uberpowerfull bullies who do as they please to whoever they please. They are not gods , heroes or else. Just Bullies.
We could then talk about why the punisher behaviour work only for the punisher and only for him, but that is more proper for an ol good Frank thread.

Ultimatley that's just what the Squadron seems to do though. Every version, regardless of how well intentioned they are, seems to slow move in the direction of the Authority. They start taking matters into their own hands, and pretty soon they end up taking over the world. Problem being in main marvel universe, where you can throw a rock out your window and likelyhit a super hero, it's not that simple. It's not the JMS or Gruenwald earth where they are basically the only game in town.

To their credit, I think spending a year running from other super heroes allowed them to realize that their group was essentially a dead end and they came to their senses and put a stop to it quickly enough.

[Michael Watkins]

With glee even. Now i think that part of the story would have been the Squadron coming to term to the fact that they kind of OVER REACTED(in real world term would be a parallel to the decimation of a whole nation for the crime of their governants even if the common people had no choice about...something that had happened oh so many times in history that humankind had filled book and books about it)

run on sentence aside, the U.S. routinely kills innocent civilians in their bombing raids. Namor is his kingdom. the atlantean kingdom is Namor. they used the same logic that Namor did when he flooded Wakanda.

Since then there was the usuallly jobbing classic character to make them look better

never happened. and you don't know enough about the individual squadron members to judge their power levels.

more skilled than they were(nighthawk bordered godbatman level at times).

read Supreme Power: Hyperion vs Nighthawk.

Street level perspective is 9 out 10 time NOT quite right and is very dangerous to act upon it(usually when happened ended up in genocide or civil war or great economical disasters) and heroes should know better, at least those who are smart. But smart and Squadron Supreme are not words you find together very often It is a fact. They come out looking bad guy. Uberpowerfull bullies who do as they please to whoever they please. They are not gods , heroes or else. Just Bullies.

they are what Namor is. you can't condemn one without condemning the other.

We could then talk about why the punisher behaviour work only for the punisher and only for him, but that is more proper for an ol good Frank thread.

you can't fault one and excuse the other.

[XPac]

run on sentence aside, the U.S. routinely kills innocent civilians in their bombing raids. Namor is his kingdom. the atlantean kingdom is Namor. they used the same logic that Namor did when he flooded Wakanda.



never happened. and you don't know enough about the individual squadron members to judge their power levels.



read Supreme Power: Hyperion vs Nighthawk.



they are what Namor is. you can't condemn one without condemning the other.



you can't fault one and excuse the other.

If the Squadron was possessed like Namor was when he flooded Wakanda, they probably would have had more a free pass for their actions too. In comics, mind control/possession is somewhat of an occupational hazard. Everyone's been mind controlled at one point or another, so you're more likely to get a break. But in the Squadron's case, that was purely on them.

This isn't like other Squadron universes where they can pretty much do anything they want and no one can do anything about it. They destroy a city, and there are people who can and will hold them accountable for that.

Still, despite no mind control or anything like that being involved I do think it's fair to say for a lot of them, they weren't necessarily in their right minds coming off the destruction of their worlds. They were in a bad place, and Nighthawk was able to push just the right buttons to get them to go along with something that most ended up regretting later. Not that this excuses what they did... but I think it goes a long ways towards the rest of the hero community and world trusting them more down the line.

[Golden Guardian of Good]

What that means essentially is they ended up listening to a guy that got them into one super hero fight after another. They seriously spent like 90% of their time fighting other super heroes. It's perhaps one of the worst super hero teams in modern times. And essentially that's why they felt apart so badly and so relatively quickly. It was just one big hot mess.

I agree 100%. And it crapped on the ideas Hickman had for Hyperion. This Hyperion can recover. That's if a writer takes interest in him like Hickman did...

[Michael Watkins]

Ultimatley that's just what the Squadron seems to do though. Every version, regardless of how well intentioned they are, seems to slow move in the direction of the Authority. They start taking matters into their own hands, and pretty soon they end up taking over the world. Problem being in main marvel universe, where you can throw a rock out your window and likelyhit a super hero, it's not that simple. It's not the JMS or Gruenwald earth where they are basically the only game in town.

When judging them, it's best to do it on an individual basis. they were a non-team. the Nighthawk that everyone is scapegoating had nothing to do with any world domination; definitely wasn't privy to the Gruenwald storyline. he was more or less a fugitive in his home world; one that was under serious threat by the government and the superhuman continuity. it made perfect sense for him to try to league up when he was displaced into the current reality. he has seen supermen take over. what he saw and reacted to in the 616 was a world where ordinary people don't matter. try looking at Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, and Fear Itself from the perspective of an unpowered human being who lost everything to forces out of his control.

or look at it from the perspective of Doctor Spectrum who came from a, by their account, utopia. her anger was legitimate. and her knowledge of what happened to her own world is what drove their initial actions. we saw what they did to Namor. it was one very personal mission that came at the tail end of several other game changing actions. they didn't lead with killing Namor. but I doubt that Spectrum would have stuck around if they didn't eventually address it.

Blur came from a world where superhumans were quarantined and then conscripted into military service. he's been taking orders for the majority of his adulthood. and he was deposited into a new world without any resources.

Warrior Woman was simply playing everyone and using the guise of a much nobler woman. had the original Zarda (the only gruenwald squadron member currently living) made it to Earth, maybe things would have gone differently. but if you're going to blame the team for seeming bloodthirsty, consider Warrior Woman's presence and just how strong she is; compared to the others.

To their credit, I think spending a year running from other super heroes allowed them to realize that their group was essentially a dead end and they came to their senses and put a stop to it quickly enough.

the team broke apart because they gave writing duties to someone who didn't like the characters. it was obvious that he had a mancrush on Jim Hammond (and Namor). he should have written another Invaders mini and let a more skilled writer handle the Squadron, imo. and the characters didn't spend any more time running than the rest of the heroes have ex. Dark Reign and/or Secret Empire. the writer never even tried to get the characters on the same page or present them as likable. they were done a disservice.

[Michael Watkins]

If the Squadron was possessed like Namor was when he flooded Wakanda,

or like Cyclops was before they incarcerated him? Namor acted of his own accord. and he was given a pass by the writers for non-sensical reasons. no one tries to excuse Emma Frost's behavior. and that's me giving her fans a compliment.

they probably would have had more a free pass for their actions too. In comics, mind control/possession is somewhat of an occupational hazard. Everyone's been mind controlled at one point or another, so you're more likely to get a break. But in the Squadron's case, that was purely on them.

I agreed with their actions. the war mongering Atlanteans had it coming. they should have been given a medal.

This isn't like other Squadron universes where they can pretty much do anything they want and no one can do anything about it.

you clearly didn't follow Nighthawk's arc in the other universe. hell, you probably don't even know what Blur was up to before being displaced.

They destroy a city, and there are people who can and will hold them accountable for that.

yes, the same hypocrites who looked the other way all of the other times that Namor harmed people. the Squadron had a good long discussion about the repercussions of their actions. they knew that people would be gunning for them. that's why they had an underwater base. they simply didn't think that the 616's heroes were looking out for the people they claimed to represent. and everything that came after proved them right. they allowed Hydra to take over and indoctrinate their children. Nighthawk died fighting against that.

Still, despite no mind control or anything like that being involved I do think it's fair to say for a lot of them, they weren't necessarily in their right minds coming off the destruction of their worlds. They were in a bad place, and Nighthawk was able to push just the right buttons to get them to go along with something that most ended up regretting later. Not that this excuses what they did... but I think it goes a long ways towards the rest of the hero community and world trusting them more down the line.

clearly not what happened. Zarda and Spectrum wanted blood. Nighthawk followed their play because he has no powers and needed people who had them to effect change in the world. the only one on the team he was close to was Blur.

[Michael Watkins]

I agree 100%. And it crapped on the ideas Hickman had for Hyperion. This Hyperion can recover. That's if a writer takes interest in him like Hickman did...

Hickman didn't have any ideas for Hyperion. he's a big concept guy/rarely focuses on the individual characters. we had one standalone story where Hyperion saved a kid from the Mauler. and people complain about the mini pitting Hyperion against superpowered carnies.

[XPac]

When judging them, it's best to do it on an individual basis. they were a non-team. the Nighthawk that everyone is scapegoating had nothing to do with any world domination; definitely wasn't privy to the Gruenwald storyline. he was more or less a fugitive in his home world; one that was under serious threat by the government and the superhuman continuity. it made perfect sense for him to try to league up when he was displaced into the current reality. he has seen supermen take over. what he saw and reacted to in the 616 was a world where ordinary people don't matter. try looking at Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, and Fear Itself from the perspective of an unpowered human being who lost everything to forces out of his control.

or look at it from the perspective of Doctor Spectrum who came from a, by their account, utopia. her anger was legitimate. and her knowledge of what happened to her own world is what drove their initial actions. we saw what they did to Namor. it was one very personal mission that came at the tail end of several other game changing actions. they didn't lead with killing Namor. but I doubt that Spectrum would have stuck around if they didn't eventually address it.

Blur came from a world where superhumans were quarantined and then conscripted into military service. he's been taking orders for the majority of his adulthood. and he was deposited into a new world without any resources.

Warrior Woman was simply playing everyone and using the guise of a much nobler woman. had the original Zarda (the only gruenwald squadron member currently living) made it to Earth, maybe things would have gone differently. but if you're going to blame the team for seeming bloodthirsty, consider Warrior Woman's presence and just how strong she is; compared to the others.



the team broke apart because they gave writing duties to someone who didn't like the characters. it was obvious that he had a mancrush on Jim Hammond (and Namor). he should have written another Invaders mini and let a more skilled writer handle the Squadron, imo. and the characters didn't spend any more time running than the rest of the heroes have ex. Dark Reign and/or Secret Empire. the writer never even tried to get the characters on the same page or present them as likable. they were done a disservice.

Relatively speaking, I'd say they did spend more of their time running from other heroes. Yes, the Avengers have done it too... but only for a small fraction of their history. Whereas the Squadrin were basically wanted from the end of the very first issue to the the middle of the last.

I think it was pretty obvious to the Squadron, after spending like 90% of their time fighting or running from other heroes, that they basically screwed this whole thing up right out of the gate and were never really able to recover from it.

I think in theory them coming together made sense, especially since none of them (except Hyperion) really had knew anyone else or had anything better to do. But like I said, they ended up being just one hot mess. Aside from the Weird World Stuff, their biggest accomplishment was basically just undoing their screw up at the start and realizing what a bad idea all of this ended up being.

[XPac]

or like Cyclops was before they incarcerated him? Namor acted of his own accord. and he was given a pass by the writers for non-sensical reasons. no one tries to excuse Emma Frost's behavior. and that's me giving her fans a compliment.



I agreed with their actions. the war mongering Atlanteans had it coming. they should have been given a medal.



you clearly didn't follow Nighthawk's arc in the other universe. hell, you probably don't even know what Blur was up to before being displaced.



yes, the same hypocrites who looked the other way all of the other times that Namor harmed people. the Squadron had a good long discussion about the repercussions of their actions. they knew that people would be gunning for them. that's why they had an underwater base. they simply didn't think that the 616's heroes were looking out for the people they claimed to represent. and everything that came after proved them right. they allowed Hydra to take over and indoctrinate their children. Nighthawk died fighting against that.



clearly not what happened. Zarda and Spectrum wanted blood. Nighthawk followed their play because he has no powers and needed people who had them to effect change in the world. the only one on the team he was close to was Blur.

Cyclops got a free pass too. Yeah he was initially incarcerated, but he escaped and eventually people just stopped giving a damn about him. Mind control isn't necessarily an overnight free pass... took Wanda like 7 years. But ultimately yes... if you were mind controlled or possessed, it's swept under the rug sooner or later. Really if it didn't work that way, 99% of the MU heroes would be sitting in a jail cell right now.

And as far as the MU heroes looking after the people they represent... they're still alive right now (which is more than we can say about any of the Squadrons earths). ANd they're alive right now because the MU heroes are actually pretty darn effective and looking after them. That's not to say they are perfect... bad stuff happens. But time and time again they've managed to protect the world against pretty much anything that's been thrown at it. If the Squadron were attempting to prove they could do a better job their failed pretty spectacularly... again, they did almost nothing except fight other super heroes. They were frankly a pretty terrible team.

[Michael Watkins]

And as far as the MU heroes looking after the people they represent... they're still alive right now (which is more than we can say about any of the Squadrons earths).

because they were ambushed and brutally murdered by Namor and his assembled killers; hence the avenging.

ANd they're alive right now because the MU heroes are actually pretty darn effective and looking after them.

Doctor Doom saved them. they were quite ineffective at saving anyone during Secret Empire. the people were still drugged. the inhumans were still placed in camps. Kingpin certainly stepped up and is now mayor because of it. the rest of them needed saving from space. tell me again how incompetent the Squadron was; after living the fight another day against the forces of Weird World, the Avengers, the Thunderbolts, Blue Marvel, and SHIELD. they had to changed Hammond's powers just to give him the advantage.

That's not to say they are perfect... bad stuff happens. But time and time again they've managed to protect the world against pretty much anything that's been thrown at it.

or maybe they just have plot armor.

If the Squadron were attempting to prove they could do a better job their failed pretty spectacularly... again, they did almost nothing except fight other super heroes. They were frankly a pretty terrible team.

no, we were only shown the fighting. reread that first issue. the first few pages are devoted to their activities up until that point. they have reactions from the people on the ground. people cheered Namor's death. the Squadron had intervened in other areas of the world. it just wasn't deemed comic worthy. that's the writer/not the characters. and I also expect some editorial interference. this all happened during the big Inhumans push. so they had to do their best to portray Black Bolt in a good light. Spectrum stayed with the Inhumans. and the real Zarda showed up (and had the focus of that issue). I think that there was more to her arrival than presented. the team would have changed direction on its own. but it was rushed because of the knee jerk reactions to Namor's death. common sense would have been to just wait for Namor to return. they weren't going to kill him permanently. but he needed to be punished for what he did. I truly believe that he was going to join the Squadron. their extreme actions were something that Namor's m.o. and he is a clear 'Aquaman/Amphibian' analog. same with Hammond. they changed his power to nuclear radiation emission a la Nuke.

[XPac]

because they were ambushed and brutally murdered by Namor and his assembled killers; hence the avenging.



Doctor Doom saved them. they were quite ineffective at saving anyone during Secret Empire. the people were still drugged. the inhumans were still placed in camps. Kingpin certainly stepped up and is now mayor because of it. the rest of them needed saving from space. tell me again how incompetent the Squadron was; after living the fight another day against the forces of Weird World, the Avengers, the Thunderbolts, Blue Marvel, and SHIELD. they had to changed Hammond's powers just to give him the advantage.



or maybe they just have plot armor.



no, we were only shown the fighting. reread that first issue. the first few pages are devoted to their activities up until that point. they have reactions from the people on the ground. people cheered Namor's death. the Squadron had intervened in other areas of the world. it just wasn't deemed comic worthy. that's the writer/not the characters. and I also expect some editorial interference. this all happened during the big Inhumans push. so they had to do their best to portray Black Bolt in a good light. Spectrum stayed with the Inhumans. and the real Zarda showed up (and had the focus of that issue). I think that there was more to her arrival than presented. the team would have changed direction on its own. but it was rushed because of the knee jerk reactions to Namor's death. common sense would have been to just wait for Namor to return. they weren't going to kill him permanently. but he needed to be punished for what he did. I truly believe that he was going to join the Squadron. their extreme actions were something that Namor's m.o. and he is a clear 'Aquaman/Amphibian' analog. same with Hammond. they changed his power to nuclear radiation emission a la Nuke.

Considering the heroes ended up saving the world from the Secret Empire, I'd say they were pretty effective. Again, I'm not saying they're perfect... bad stuff happens. But again, they are always able to overcome pretty much everything that's thrown at the world. And it's not like bad stuff doesn't happen on the worlds the various Squadron members are from. Again, the MU's earth is still around. So I'd say overall they did a MUCH better job of protecting it.

And yes some of them did want to avenge their worlds... a completely understandable motivation. Nonetheless the point being they can't be too critical of the job the MU heroes are doing, if they essentially did a better job at protecting their world than pretty much anyone else in the multiverse. No one is perfect, MU heroes included... but in the same breath I don't think you can argue anyone has proven better than them either.

And again, even if they did a few things here and there off panel I still think it's more than fair to call them a pretty horrible team. They accomplished very little aside from fighting or running away from other heroes before splitting up and going their separate ways. Maybe under different circumstances they could have lasted longer and accomplished more... but they didn't, and that's that.

Hopefully Hyperion at least can recover from the whole debacle and find himself in some other book.

[Michael Watkins]

Considering the heroes ended up saving the world from the Secret Empire, I'd say they were pretty effective.

all hinged upon there being a no-name Inhuman being able to create things out of nothing. like I said; plot armor.

Again, I'm not saying they're perfect... bad stuff happens.

because of them

But again, they are always able to overcome pretty much everything that's thrown at the world. And it's not like bad stuff doesn't happen on the worlds the various Squadron members are from.

the Great Society dealt with their problems. back to Nighthawk's character arc, he was doing as much good as one person could; using his earned wealth and physical skill. read that Hyperion vs Nighthawk mini (or look up the synopsis on line). he's doing what Tony Stark could be doing but without the benefit of super genius intellect.

And yes some of them did want to avenge their worlds... a completely understandable motivation. Nonetheless the point being they can't be too critical of the job the MU heroes are doing, if they essentially did a better job at protecting their world than pretty much anyone else in the multiverse.

again, the heroes didn't actually do anything. as it has been regurgitated to me ad nauseum, Doom saved everyone. all you could really ask of any hero in this situation is to fight to the death. the heroes of the other world defended their earths and died in the process. you know what they didn't do? they didn't make the decision for the people of their world to go around murdering innocents. and, even finding themselves in a world that isn't their own, they chose to defend it. seems pretty noble to me.

No one is perfect, MU heroes included... but in the same breath I don't think you can argue anyone has proven better than them either.

in this case, they don't have to be better. they simply attacked what they thought was a problem. and, on paper, Namor and the Atlanteans are a problem. Namor has done very little to correct that image. look at his alliances. and look at how he reacted after drowing the Wakandans. when you make a mistake, you apologize for it. did he? you might not if you were, say, Magneto or a pre-secret wars doctor doom. what the Squadron did wasn't any worse than the Avengers siccing the Sentry on Doctor Doom prior to Dark Reign. they eliminated a threat. might makes right.

And again, even if they did a few things here and there off panel I still think it's more than fair to call them a pretty horrible team. They accomplished very little aside from fighting or running away from other heroes before splitting up and going their separate ways.

they never accidentally harmed one another while fighting. and I'd say that Nighthawk's battle strategy was always sound. look at how expertly they outmaneuvered Quicksilver. they were dominating the Bucky-led Thunderbolts and could have won if not for a reality warping cosmic cube girl. just because they aren't all buddies doesn't make them a bad team. biggest mistake was trusting Zarda. but I'd chalk it up to her being very convincing; not to mention formidable enough to organize an army of warring alien tribes. a lot of their difficulties were written in to specifically break the team apart in time for the series to abruptly end. if the book had been better received, the cast (except maybe Nighthawk) would still be intact. and, by now, they'd all be trying to stop Hyperion from inacting the Utopia Program or already be thralls (because they didn't listen to Nighthawk's warning).

Hopefully Hyperion at least can recover from the whole debacle and find himself in some other book.

I hope he survives too. but I think he was being developed into a threat. that's why he was the one to deliver the killing blow in the Namor issue. otherwise, there was no reason to have Nighthawk discover that it was eventually come to a death battle between he and Hype. there are only two ways that happens. either Nighthawk somehow becomes dangerous enough to be a threat. or Marc, who changed on a dime when Zarda showed up, reverts to type; inacting the program that was already in play on his homeworld. that mind-controlling weapon was introduced through the evil Zarda. she used it to enthrall the Myriad. there's also the matter of the power-granting plant alien that was introduced in Marc's solo series (and later turned up in Namor's possession). there were a lot of plot lines that didn't get tied up. I think people should have been more patient.

disclaimer: I'd rather that Marc stay an above board hero and I loved his solo series.

[XPac]

all hinged upon there being a no-name Inhuman being able to create things out of nothing. like I said; plot armor.



because of them



the Great Society dealt with their problems. back to Nighthawk's character arc, he was doing as much good as one person could; using his earned wealth and physical skill. read that Hyperion vs Nighthawk mini (or look up the synopsis on line). he's doing what Tony Stark could be doing but without the benefit of super genius intellect.



again, the heroes didn't actually do anything. as it has been regurgitated to me ad nauseum, Doom saved everyone. all you could really ask of any hero in this situation is to fight to the death. the heroes of the other world defended their earths and died in the process. you know what they didn't do? they didn't make the decision for the people of their world to go around murdering innocents. and, even finding themselves in a world that isn't their own, they chose to defend it. seems pretty noble to me.



in this case, they don't have to be better. they simply attacked what they thought was a problem. and, on paper, Namor and the Atlanteans are a problem. Namor has done very little to correct that image. look at his alliances. and look at how he reacted after drowing the Wakandans. when you make a mistake, you apologize for it. did he? you might not if you were, say, Magneto or a pre-secret wars doctor doom. what the Squadron did wasn't any worse than the Avengers siccing the Sentry on Doctor Doom prior to Dark Reign. they eliminated a threat. might makes right.



they never accidentally harmed one another while fighting. and I'd say that Nighthawk's battle strategy was always sound. look at how expertly they outmaneuvered Quicksilver. they were dominating the Bucky-led Thunderbolts and could have won if not for a reality warping cosmic cube girl. just because they aren't all buddies doesn't make them a bad team. biggest mistake was trusting Zarda. but I'd chalk it up to her being very convincing; not to mention formidable enough to organize an army of warring alien tribes. a lot of their difficulties were written in to specifically break the team apart in time for the series to abruptly end. if the book had been better received, the cast (except maybe Nighthawk) would still be intact. and, by now, they'd all be trying to stop Hyperion from inacting the Utopia Program or already be thralls (because they didn't listen to Nighthawk's warning).



I hope he survives too. but I think he was being developed into a threat. that's why he was the one to deliver the killing blow in the Namor issue. otherwise, there was no reason to have Nighthawk discover that it was eventually come to a death battle between he and Hype. there are only two ways that happens. either Nighthawk somehow becomes dangerous enough to be a threat. or Marc, who changed on a dime when Zarda showed up, reverts to type; inacting the program that was already in play on his homeworld. that mind-controlling weapon was introduced through the evil Zarda. she used it to enthrall the Myriad. there's also the matter of the power-granting plant alien that was introduced in Marc's solo series (and later turned up in Namor's possession). there were a lot of plot lines that didn't get tied up. I think people should have been more patient.

disclaimer: I'd rather that Marc stay an above board hero and I loved his solo series.

It's certainly fair to say DOom saved the multiverse from destruction... but that's not to say that the heroes weren't absolutely necessary in saving and restoring the multiverse. Doom himself would have died from the incusions if the Illuminati hadn't stopped the first ones. THe life rafters were necessary to save to save the heroes after the final incursion, and of course the heroes were needed to defeat Doom to get the multiverse back. Doom deserves a lot of credit... but the multiverse getting restored required the MU heroes.

ANd yes, the heroes of the other worlds fought to the death. And their worlds died. You can argue it's noble... but the ultimate point being they didn't do as good a job protecting their people as the MU heroes of earth prime did. They ultimately failed at protecting their earths.

And I'm not saying they're a bad team because they're not buddies (though it certainly helps... if they liked each other they might have stayed together). I'm saying they're a bad team because they really didn't accomplish much, spent the vast majority of their time fighting or running from other heroes, and broke up relatively quickly and on poor terms. They proved to be a pretty poor team by any reasonable measurement you want to use.

As far as Nighthawks warning... given he's dead, I'm not sure we have to worry too much about that vision or whatever. Though heroes do return from the grave, so we'll see.

[Michael Watkins]

It's certainly fair to say DOom saved the multiverse from destruction... but that's not to say that the heroes weren't absolutely necessary in saving and restoring the multiverse. Doom himself would have died from the incusions if the Illuminati hadn't stopped the first ones.

while we're speculating, maybe fewer people would have died had the Iluminati not withheld the existence of the Incursions.

THe life rafters were necessary to save to save the heroes after the final incursion, and of course the heroes were needed to defeat Doom to get the multiverse back. Doom deserves a lot of credit... but the multiverse getting restored required the MU heroes.

it requires Reed Richards and the Molecule Man. not sure what this has to do with the others giving Namor a pass for murdering the Wakandans, though. when you use possession as a defense, the burden of proof is on you. all I have to do, on my end, is to post Namor screaming at the top of his lungs that he'd gleefully kill them again; post-Phoenix. just face it, Namor had it coming. the Atlanteans are another issue. but you're not even conceding that he was guilty.

ANd yes, the heroes of the other worlds fought to the death. And their worlds died. You can argue it's noble... but the ultimate point being they didn't do as good a job protecting their people as the MU heroes of earth prime did. They ultimately failed at protecting their earths.

which gives them even more of a motive to attack their new earth's problems with zero tolerance. it's like when Steve Rogers allowed Wolverine to be an Avenger because he would be willing to do things that his boyscout @## wouldn't. the Squadron simply recruited more Wolverines.

And I'm not saying they're a bad team because they're not buddies (though it certainly helps... if they liked each other they might have stayed together).

the dissolution of the team was not organic. they were forced apart because the writer needed them to be. it really makes no sense for Blur to suddenly develop into a Jim Hammond fanboy and jump ship. given her rage, it made no sense for Spectrum to suddenly sympathize with the Inhumans; given that Black Bolt's action was an act of a guilty person. Hyperion turning on Nighthawk was illogical given that it was Marc who took the killshot. he wasn't in a position to judge. and I'm not even sure why they were in the past to begin with. they could have just teamed up to take down evil-Zarda.

I'm saying they're a bad team because they really didn't accomplish much,

you state it as fact. I disagree. and I cited the news reports. they accomplished plenty. I submit that Robinson didn't really like the characters. if he had, he would have focused on what they accomplished and used the stuff with Namor to explore morality of the group. instead, killing Namor was a footnote. and they immediately had them chucked into weird world. why sabotage the team upfront? the more interesting story was Nighthawk's discovery of the Myriad. that was a mission that the team could have focused on; as a unit. basically, they Diggle-Bolted everything. it's not hard to think up stories involving the Squadron. there are parts of the marvel universe that we never see. they could have had them proactively taking out Islamic terrorists or killing members of Hydra who had infiltrated government. he chose not to for some reason.

spent the vast majority of their time fighting or running from other heroes, and broke up relatively quickly and on poor terms. They proved to be a pretty poor team by any reasonable measurement you want to use.

I disagree entirely. I think the Uncanny Avengers are a pretty piss poor team, though.

As far as Nighthawks warning... given he's dead, I'm not sure we have to worry too much about that vision or whatever. Though heroes do return from the grave, so we'll see.

an unforced error on Marvel's part, imo. they've been making a lot of them. they could have used Ultimate Nick Fury. instead they decided to blatantly introduce a character who couldn't fill his shoes. they could have promoted Dwayne Taylor. instead, they made him the butt of a reality tv show, killed him, replaced him with his milli vanilli impersonating brother, and changed that lesser character into Dwayne. there was nothing broken about Nighthawk. there was nothing broken about Nightshade. putting Nightshade into Nighthawk's costume doesn't help either character. if people hated Nighthawk, Tilda was twice as murderous and w/o even the pretense of a mission. they bothered to reintroduce depowered Zarda as a one woman army easily infiltrating shield, forming alliances with Daimon Hellstrom, and deep sea diving to locate the Squadron (when no one else could). then they don't do anything with her. a lot of stupid wasteful moves being made. Nighthawk being killed off isn't evidence of the character failing. it's Marvel failing on a creative level.