Hyperion Appreciation

[Michael Watkins]

I didn't say they were necessarily bad heroes individually (though none of them really have a whole lot to brag about either), just that as a team the kinda sucked, and they pretty much admitted it in the end.

If they can accomplish more apart than together, more power to them.

sure. but I still submit that their record against other hero teams was quite good. they were the ones being hunted in most of those altercations. and none of them are in prison. Nighthawk's tactics gave them the edge against the Uncanny Avengers (who I called sucky earlier). they were dominating the Thunderbolts until their cosmic cube teammate got involved. and the other heroes had the advantage of Ulysses for the last half of the run. yeah, the characters didn't get along. they were, like the Defenders, a team of outsiders/loners (except maybe Blur). but I saw little wrong with their tactics. they couldn't outright win without making those other heroes look bad (there are already accusations of jobbing in this thread). maybe the writer should have had them actually fight some villains instead of other heroes and turncoat members. that's why I say that Robinson didn't really like the characters. it seemed that he just used the book as a way to showcase characters he did like fighting the heel Squadron team. but that's just my bitterness talking.

i'll say this much. it was Nighthawk who was most invested in the teamup. and it makes sense. he was from a world where about a dozen superpowered individuals existed. and they were mostly sociopaths. they were to take over in preparation for Hyperion's people to invade. Nighthawk then wound up in a world where there were 10 x as many superhumans. a place where Norman Osborn could become top cop. I don't blame him for being a bit paranoid. he had his mission and tried to expand that mission to include a bunch of displaced strangers (w/ grudges of their own). that was a mistake. he should have just gone after lower level vigilantes and non-avengers. he could have done wonders with a team like the Revengers. he certainly would have benefited from the aid of someone like Zarda (the original squadron version).

[Jovos2099]

squadron city could be like that city tony stark built a couple years ago and then never brought up again just his brother arno only cooler because they wouldn't forget it existed.

[XPac]

sure. but I still submit that their record against other hero teams was quite good. they were the ones being hunted in most of those altercations. and none of them are in prison. Nighthawk's tactics gave them the edge against the Uncanny Avengers (who I called sucky earlier). they were dominating the Thunderbolts until their cosmic cube teammate got involved. and the other heroes had the advantage of Ulysses for the last half of the run. yeah, the characters didn't get along. they were, like the Defenders, a team of outsiders/loners (except maybe Blur). but I saw little wrong with their tactics. they couldn't outright win without making those other heroes look bad (there are already accusations of jobbing in this thread). maybe the writer should have had them actually fight some villains instead of other heroes and turncoat members. that's why I say that Robinson didn't really like the characters. it seemed that he just used the book as a way to showcase characters he did like fighting the heel Squadron team. but that's just my bitterness talking.

i'll say this much. it was Nighthawk who was most invested in the teamup. and it makes sense. he was from a world where about a dozen superpowered individuals existed. and they were mostly sociopaths. they were to take over in preparation for Hyperion's people to invade. Nighthawk then wound up in a world where there were 10 x as many superhumans. a place where Norman Osborn could become top cop. I don't blame him for being a bit paranoid. he had his mission and tried to expand that mission to include a bunch of displaced strangers (w/ grudges of their own). that was a mistake. he should have just gone after lower level vigilantes and non-avengers. he could have done wonders with a team like the Revengers. he certainly would have benefited from the aid of someone like Zarda (the original squadron version).

Maybe we're using different defintions of "good." I think they did okay in fights against other super hero teams (though I'm hesitant to say they actually beat the Uncanny Avengers or the Thunderbolts and they didn't exactly look great against Blue Marvel solo). My measurement of them isn't how good they are at fighting other heroes, because if anything I consider that a short coming on their part. The fact that they mostly went around fighting other heroes rather focusing on actual villains I think is one of their short comings.

The measurement I use to determine how effective they were as a team was essentially how much good they did. And to echo Hyperions statement at the end of the book, aside from Weird World they really didn't do a whole lot. And a lot of the stuff they did do, they ended up regretting.

Did they have the potential to do better? Sure. But potential and a dolloar won't buy you a cup of coffee.

[Michael Watkins]

Maybe we're using different defintions of "good." I think they did okay in fights against other super hero teams (though I'm hesitant to say they actually beat the Uncanny Avengers or the Thunderbolts and they didn't exactly look great against Blue Marvel solo).

Blue Marvel has handled Avengers teams on his own. he was warned by Ulysses in time to set traps, as well.

My measurement of them isn't how good they are at fighting other heroes, because if anything I consider that a short coming on their part. The fact that they mostly went around fighting other heroes rather focusing on actual villains I think is one of their short comings.

I say it's the fault of the heroes who targeted them; solely because they killed Namor.

The measurement I use to determine how effective they were as a team was essentially how much good they did. And to echo Hyperions statement at the end of the book, aside from Weird World they really didn't do a whole lot. And a lot of the stuff they did do, they ended up regretting.

that's not what they said in issue 1. and Hyperion is an unreliable narrator. he's the one who killed Namor.

Did they have the potential to do better? Sure. But potential and a dolloar won't buy you a cup of coffee.

decent writing is worth a lot more than a dollar. it should be relatively easy to write a good Squadron story. it's just like writing a good Avengers or JLA story.

[XPac]

Blue Marvel has handled Avengers teams on his own. he was warned by Ulysses in time to set traps, as well.



I say it's the fault of the heroes who targeted them; solely because they killed Namor.



that's not what they said in issue 1. and Hyperion is an unreliable narrator. he's the one who killed Namor.



decent writing is worth a lot more than a dollar. it should be relatively easy to write a good Squadron story. it's just like writing a good Avengers or JLA story.

If the Squadron didn't want to spend their entire time running and hiding from SHIELD and the Avengers, then they probably shouldn't have killed Namor and destroyed Atlantis. But they did anyways, fully aware of the consequences... so that's on the Squadron.

And it wasn't just Hyperion. It was all but unanimous. Thundra agreed with Hyperion and said any good they did was offset by the collateral damange they caused. Blurr surrendered himself to SHIELD to pay for the "villainy" he may have committed. He said he wasn't even sure he could spell the word "good" being with the Squadron. They all pretty much unanimously considered the group a huge flop ... it's why they all quit in the first place. If they felt they are actually doing good, most of them probably would have stuck around.

But again, running and fighting other super heroes isn't really helping anyone. And that's essentially the dead end the Squadron landed in almost at the very beginning because of the poor choices they made as a team.

[Michael Watkins]

If the Squadron didn't want to spend their entire time running and hiding from SHIELD and the Avengers, then they probably shouldn't have killed Namor and destroyed Atlantis. But they did anyways, fully aware of the consequences... so that's on the Squadron.

Nonsense. This was the 3rd attempt on Namor's life in the past decade. Ever consider that Namor is the one making bad decisions? Is he not aware of the consequences? The Avengers showed up pretty quick when Namor was killed. Where were they when the Purifiers killed all of those x-kids? Nighthawk's response when Cap ambushed him was that he and the Avengers were only about maintaining the status quo. By their actions, they have proven him right. The Squadron were chased because the cops protect their own, even when they shouldn't.

[CentralPower]

The measurement I use to determine how effective they were as a team was essentially how much good they did. And to echo Hyperions statement at the end of the book, aside from Weird World they really didn't do a whole lot. And a lot of the stuff they did do, they ended up regretting.

Characters like the Squadron would inevitably come in to conflict with the characters in mainline Marvel.

Even discounting variants of Squadron Sinister, the whole point of the Squadron is that they are a team of over-reaching superhumans. They take over with the best of intentions, often with bad results. Then, they either fail, or create other problems. The more they interact with mainline Marvel, the more they appear as clowns. (And, Marvel has incentive to use a bastardized Justice League to mock DC's characters.)

The 12 issue series from the 80s (arguably the smartest treatment of the characters) depicts them as failing catastrophically.

The New Universe imprint imprint featured superhumans that screwed up on a large scale, much like the Ultimate imprint.


I am not sure what Marvel's plan for the Squadron and Hyperion was, post-"Secret Wars". But, it was probably a mistake to use them in Marvel's main setting.

decent writing is worth a lot more than a dollar. it should be relatively easy to write a good Squadron story. it's just like writing a good Avengers or JLA story.

I am skeptical of this.

In 1985, using the Squadron as proxies in a Justice League story that DC simply could not publish was bold. At the time, neither of the big 2 was likely to publish a comic where the main character failed, or was fundamentally flawed. (And, no, Marvel characters having baggage or being sad about something is not the sort of foundational flaw that I am talking about.)

Now, the big two are, if anything, too willing to undermine their main characters, using ideas in mainline comics that should be kept in an editorial vacuum. (How can Marvel's heroes come back after either "Civil War" or "Secret Empire"? "Amazons Attack" or "OMAC Project" should have been the end of Wonder Woman and Batman as heroes at DC.")

Comics published in an editorial vacuum (such as "Master Men" or "Red Son") arguably make the Squadron obsolete, and not just because the newer comics are written with modern sensibilities.

[Michael Watkins]

Characters like the Squadron would inevitably come in to conflict with the characters in mainline Marvel.

Even discounting variants of Squadron Sinister, the whole point of the Squadron is that they are a team of over-reaching superhumans. They take over with the best of intentions, often with bad results. Then, they either fail, or create other problems. The more they interact with mainline Marvel, the more they appear as clowns. (And, Marvel has incentive to use a bastardized Justice League to mock DC's characters.)

The 12 issue series from the 80s (arguably the smartest treatment of the characters) depicts them as failing catastrophically.

The New Universe imprint imprint featured superhumans that screwed up on a large scale, much like the Ultimate imprint.


I am not sure what Marvel's plan for the Squadron and Hyperion was, post-"Secret Wars". But, it was probably a mistake to use them in Marvel's main setting.




I am skeptical of this.

In 1985, using the Squadron as proxies in a Justice League story that DC simply could not publish was bold. At the time, neither of the big 2 was likely to publish a comic where the main character failed, or was fundamentally flawed. (And, no, Marvel characters having baggage or being sad about something is not the sort of foundational flaw that I am talking about.)

Now, the big two are, if anything, too willing to undermine their main characters, using ideas in mainline comics that should be kept in an editorial vacuum. (How can Marvel's heroes come back after either "Civil War" or "Secret Empire"? "Amazons Attack" or "OMAC Project" should have been the end of Wonder Woman and Batman as heroes at DC.")

Comics published in an editorial vacuum (such as "Master Men" or "Red Son") arguably make the Squadron obsolete, and not just because the newer comics are written with modern sensibilities.

then they should just assimilate the characters. I don't think that anyone had an issue with Hyperion as an Avenger; for example. creating a DC analogue to mock DC is a waste of resources. I can think of better ways to use Gary Frank, at least. having recently read jurgens and JMS' take on the team, I'd say that the JMS version had more storytelling potential. but I'm ok with him going out on a cliffhanger. i'll ignore the non-MAX stuff.

[XPac]

Nonsense. This was the 3rd attempt on Namor's life in the past decade. Ever consider that Namor is the one making bad decisions? Is he not aware of the consequences? The Avengers showed up pretty quick when Namor was killed. Where were they when the Purifiers killed all of those x-kids? Nighthawk's response when Cap ambushed him was that he and the Avengers were only about maintaining the status quo. By their actions, they have proven him right. The Squadron were chased because the cops protect their own, even when they shouldn't.

I don't dispute that Namor hasn't made some questionable decisions ... and he's paid a heavy price for them as well. Moral of the story being don't go around destroying cities.

To their credit, the Squadron themselves (or most of them at least) recognize that their actions were wrong. That's a big part of the reason why they broke up. It's why Blurr surrendered himself to SHIELD, Hyperion resurrected Namor and rebuilt Atlantis. Even Thundra, who had nothing to do with it, recognized the harm they caused out weighted the minimal success they achieved. The Squadron basically admits they were wrong in the end. It just took them a year or so to get there.

[XPac]

Characters like the Squadron would inevitably come in to conflict with the characters in mainline Marvel.

Even discounting variants of Squadron Sinister, the whole point of the Squadron is that they are a team of over-reaching superhumans. They take over with the best of intentions, often with bad results. Then, they either fail, or create other problems. The more they interact with mainline Marvel, the more they appear as clowns. (And, Marvel has incentive to use a bastardized Justice League to mock DC's characters.)

The 12 issue series from the 80s (arguably the smartest treatment of the characters) depicts them as failing catastrophically.

The New Universe imprint imprint featured superhumans that screwed up on a large scale, much like the Ultimate imprint.


I am not sure what Marvel's plan for the Squadron and Hyperion was, post-"Secret Wars". But, it was probably a mistake to use them in Marvel's main setting.




I am skeptical of this.

In 1985, using the Squadron as proxies in a Justice League story that DC simply could not publish was bold. At the time, neither of the big 2 was likely to publish a comic where the main character failed, or was fundamentally flawed. (And, no, Marvel characters having baggage or being sad about something is not the sort of foundational flaw that I am talking about.)

Now, the big two are, if anything, too willing to undermine their main characters, using ideas in mainline comics that should be kept in an editorial vacuum. (How can Marvel's heroes come back after either "Civil War" or "Secret Empire"? "Amazons Attack" or "OMAC Project" should have been the end of Wonder Woman and Batman as heroes at DC.")

Comics published in an editorial vacuum (such as "Master Men" or "Red Son") arguably make the Squadron obsolete, and not just because the newer comics are written with modern sensibilities.

Gruenwalds Squadron was great. Honestly I still put that up there with Watchmen and Kingdom Come.

I do think it's very difficult to fold the Squadron in the main MU and have them still be the Squadron. Like you said, their identity apart from being DC analogues is almost entirely build around the notion of heroes going too far. But in the MU, there's only so far you can go. Water that aspect down, and they essentially become like any other super hero team.

It's sort of a tricky thing to navitage if you're going to use them in the main MU. Though at this point it's probably moot.

[Michael Watkins]

I don't dispute that Namor hasn't made some questionable decisions ... and he's paid a heavy price for them as well. Moral of the story being don't go around destroying cities.

yes, that was the moral of the story. even Namor realized it when they plucked him from the time stream. it's why he agreed to aid them.

To their credit, the Squadron themselves (or most of them at least) recognize that their actions were wrong. That's a big part of the reason why they broke up. It's why Blurr surrendered himself to SHIELD, Hyperion resurrected Namor and rebuilt Atlantis. Even Thundra, who had nothing to do with it, recognized the harm they caused out weighted the minimal success they achieved. The Squadron basically admits they were wrong in the end. It just took them a year or so to get there.

you keep saying it. but it still doesn't make sense to me. there was nothing organic about their conclusions. it was done because the series needed to wrap up w/o there being an active Squadron. but when you write all of their actions down on paper they aren't any worse than any other team in the Marvel Universe. they were proactive. that scared the Avengers. and they used Namor's murder as the probable cause to go after the Squadron. and the Squadron undid Namor's murder. so what horrible things did the Squadron actually do? did they kill someone else that I'm forgetting? was aiding Thundra something horrible? you seem to be using the logic that Bendis tried to shove down everyone's throats when he Disassembled the Avengers (and later when he had the Revengers attack them). i'll spare you the image of Simon Williams screaming that the Avengers do more harm than good. Simon was just as crazy as this line of thinking. the Squadron were definitely acting as vigilantes. and Steve Rogers nearly killed Tony Stark for their right to do so. and, in fairness, Steve Rogers really wasn't himself during this time period.

[Michael Watkins]

Gruenwalds Squadron was great. Honestly I still put that up there with Watchmen and Kingdom Come.

it was a well told story. but it reads as dated, to me. sometimes that works (like when it's Alex Ross). I preferred the JMS version. it felt more like a good Ultimate Universe story. and those were few and far between. Hyperion's very natural evolution into an angry god was well handled. I'm glad that the character existed. and I'm glad that the more classic take on Hyperion exists.

I do think it's very difficult to fold the Squadron in the main MU and have them still be the Squadron.

they don't have to be the Squadron. they are displaced individuals.

Like you said, their identity apart from being DC analogues is almost entirely build around the notion of heroes going too far.

I don't agree with this. Stark has gone just as far and escaped the label. these characters can be whatever they are needed to be. Hyperion isn't even the Gruenwald version. the Gruenwald Nighthawk "going to far" amounted to him not using an argonite bullet to save everyone from being mind controlled and becoming President of the United States. the Nighthawk that took part in this series and is currently dead, was a lot tamer than Moon Knight (an Avenger). there is nothing edgy about Blur. Spectrum...well, I don't care for her. but she's past the rage part of the grieving process. anyways, this is the one time you can look to DC for how to do something properly. they have incorporated the Watchmen characters in an interesting manner. Marvel had the perfect setup after Secret Wars. I started a thread tracking the appearances of New Universe and Squadron characters because I thought that they were going to do something really creative with it. my bad. Phillip Vogt was as dangerous as Michael Korvac in his homeworld. here, he's a watered down bureaucrat.

But in the MU, there's only so far you can go. Water that aspect down, and they essentially become like any other super hero team.

that's why it'd be better to focus on them separately. the point is that these are well-designed characters with very little background. they are usable. and, unlike some of the legacy characters, they are not controversial. creating new characters is difficult. yet these characters or variants of them have been around since the 80s. Marvel would be stupid to waste them, imo.

[XPac]

yes, that was the moral of the story. even Namor realized it when they plucked him from the time stream. it's why he agreed to aid them.



you keep saying it. but it still doesn't make sense to me. there was nothing organic about their conclusions. it was done because the series needed to wrap up w/o there being an active Squadron. but when you write all of their actions down on paper they aren't any worse than any other team in the Marvel Universe. they were proactive. that scared the Avengers. and they used Namor's murder as the probable cause to go after the Squadron. and the Squadron undid Namor's murder. so what horrible things did the Squadron actually do? did they kill someone else that I'm forgetting? was aiding Thundra something horrible? you seem to be using the logic that Bendis tried to shove down everyone's throats when he Disassembled the Avengers (and later when he had the Revengers attack them). i'll spare you the image of Simon Williams screaming that the Avengers do more harm than good. Simon was just as crazy as this line of thinking. the Squadron were definitely acting as vigilantes. and Steve Rogers nearly killed Tony Stark for their right to do so. and, in fairness, Steve Rogers really wasn't himself during this time period.

It's not like they were only second guessing their actions in the last issue. Several members of the team were expressing doubts about the direction the group was moving in well before the final issue. And it's not like these guys signed up so they could spend literally all their time fighting or hiding from other super heroes (which is almost all they did after the first issue aside from the Weird World stuff).

And you can't really compare the Squadron to the Avengers because even if the Avengers arguably did questionable things too, the good they have done outweights it 100 to 1. You can't really say that about the Squadron. Again, it goes back to Thundra's argument that the good they have achieved doesn't outweight the harm they caused, or Hyperions statement that aside from Weird World they didn't really do anything. If they had accomplished more and helped more people maybe they all wouldn't have quit. But as it stands, it's not all that surprising that the bulk of the team don't want to waste anymore time fighting super heroes when they're not hiding at the bottom of the ocean.

[Michael Watkins]

It's not like they were only second guessing their actions in the last issue. Several members of the team were expressing doubts about the direction the group was moving in well before the final issue. And it's not like these guys signed up so they could spend literally all their time fighting or hiding from other super heroes (which is almost all they did after the first issue aside from the Weird World stuff).

in the run-up to the series, the writer promised something much different than what he delivered. it made no sense for them to spend "all" of their time fighting or hiding from other superheroes. it makes no sense because their only bad (but entirely justifiable) act was killing Namor. the series only told the story of the hero community's overreaction to the Squadron killing Namor. it could have just as easily focused on them finding and defeating the Myriad, right? Robinson had them say that they didn't accomplish anything because he didn't accomplish anything/focused on everything but their mission. and you call it hiding. but covert was their preferred way of operating; like the Secret Avengers. the direction was just to find threats and eliminate them. there's nothing controversial about that mission statement. so where does the doubt come from? my speculation is that everything was so chaotic because the original Zarda was intended to become the defacto leader; to assuage any of their doubts and steer them in another direction. but the book was already on the chopping block, by that point. I can think of no other reason to reintroduce the character, portray her as ultra-capable, and have her confront the Squadron. it was extremely mary-sue-ish.

And you can't really compare the Squadron to the Avengers because even if the Avengers arguably did questionable things too, the good they have done outweights it 100 to 1.

that's debatable. I'd say that the Avengers have spent a great deal of time in-fighting over the years. Secret Empire and Dark Reign couldn't have happened without them.

You can't really say that about the Squadron.

the newly formed Squadron team? yeah, a team who has only been around for months can't match the history of one that has been around decades.

Again, it goes back to Thundra's argument that the good they have achieved doesn't outweight the harm they caused

whatever happened to striving to be better? Peter Parker got his uncle killed, first time out. at that point you could say that the harm that he caused outweighed the good. Tony Stark was a "merchant of death." several of the Avengers started out as villains.

bulk of the team don't want to waste anymore time fighting super heroes when they're not hiding at the bottom of the ocean.

1) since when is having a difficult to locate base something negative?

2) so what are they wasting their time doing, now?

[XPac]

in the run-up to the series, the writer promised something much different than what he delivered. it made no sense for them to spend "all" of their time fighting or hiding from other superheroes. it makes no sense because their only bad (but entirely justifiable) act was killing Namor. the series only told the story of the hero community's overreaction to the Squadron killing Namor. it could have just as easily focused on them finding and defeating the Myriad, right? Robinson had them say that they didn't accomplish anything because he didn't accomplish anything/focused on everything but their mission. and you call it hiding. but covert was their preferred way of operating; like the Secret Avengers. the direction was just to find threats and eliminate them. there's nothing controversial about that mission statement. so where does the doubt come from? my speculation is that everything was so chaotic because the original Zarda was intended to become the defacto leader; to assuage any of their doubts and steer them in another direction. but the book was already on the chopping block, by that point. I can think of no other reason to reintroduce the character, portray her as ultra-capable, and have her confront the Squadron. it was extremely mary-sue-ish.



that's debatable. I'd say that the Avengers have spent a great deal of time in-fighting over the years. Secret Empire and Dark Reign couldn't have happened without them.



the newly formed Squadron team? yeah, a team who has only been around for months can't match the history of one that has been around decades.



whatever happened to striving to be better? Peter Parker got his uncle killed, first time out. at that point you could say that the harm that he caused outweighed the good. Tony Stark was a "merchant of death." several of the Avengers started out as villains.



1) since when is having a difficult to locate base something negative?

2) so what are they wasting their time doing, now?

Having a secret location is a plus when you're fugitives hiding from justice ... But the point being they didn't sign on to be fugitives running from the law. They signed on to be super heroes ... something they did very very little of because of the poor choices they made early on.

But there is no reason they can't individually strive to do better. If they can prove themselves to be better heroes now, more power to them. If they can't, then that probably explains why they weren't that good a team to begin with.

Time will tell. Maybe Hyperion will get another shot at being an Avenger. It was something he said he was proud of.