How Are They Not Purely a Supervillain?

[t hedge coke]

But wasn't that the point of that phase, to try to make Brock an "anti-hero"? It just didn't make any sense to me...

I think part of it was spinning him out into solo things, but also appeasing the Code. The Code seems to have made it pretty hard just to do a straight up villain book for too long. You want a Joker or Venom solo series? Fine, but they can't just go around hurting people all the time.

And, we were in a very forgiving mood back then. Lex Luthor was pretending to be his own son and in what was clearly a relationship with Supergirl based primarily in keeping her ignorant of what a horrible, horrible man he was. Magneto had an entire cult of genocidal whackjobs, but they'd still play him as a misunderstood messiah or something. Sad old man. Punisher was more and more straight action hero. Even the blatantly satirical psycho Punisher 2099 became more or less a straight action hero for his last several issues.

I blame the zeitgeist a bit, but mostly the Comics Code and the sort of insanely unhealthy moral relativism it forced on the villain/hero dynamic.

[Agent Z]

To play a bit of Devil's Advocate, I think the reason why some of these villains can be thought of as not "purely evil" is that sometimes the heroes can be somewhat similar. Xavier segregates Mutants from humans just like Magneto. Lex Luthor is a sociopathic billionaire who uses his money and power to terroriZe those smaller than him but the same could be said of Batman at times. Add in that Luthor tends to have had a harder time than Bruce what with growing up in poverty and abuse and it adds some unfortunate implications that as long as you're born rich and privileged you're good.

[ed2962]

I think part of it was spinning him out into solo things, but also appeasing the Code. The Code seems to have made it pretty hard just to do a straight up villain book for too long. You want a Joker or Venom solo series? Fine, but they can't just go around hurting people all the time.

And, we were in a very forgiving mood back then. Lex Luthor was pretending to be his own son and in what was clearly a relationship with Supergirl based primarily in keeping her ignorant of what a horrible, horrible man he was. Magneto had an entire cult of genocidal whackjobs, but they'd still play him as a misunderstood messiah or something. Sad old man. Punisher was more and more straight action hero. Even the blatantly satirical psycho Punisher 2099 became more or less a straight action hero for his last several issues.

I blame the zeitgeist a bit, but mostly the Comics Code and the sort of insanely unhealthy moral relativism it forced on the villain/hero dynamic.

I kind of see it as, for lack of a better term, "the rise of the bad-ass". Where almost any character who was seen as aggressive in fiction was deified. Not just people who supposed to be anti-heroes, but almost anyone who was seen as tuff.

[ed2962]

To play a bit of Devil's Advocate, I think the reason why some of these villains can be thought of as not "purely evil" is that sometimes the heroes can be somewhat similar. Xavier segregates Mutants from humans just like Magneto. Lex Luthor is a sociopathic billionaire who uses his money and power to terroriZe those smaller than him but the same could be said of Batman at times. Add in that Luthor tends to have had a harder time than Bruce what with growing up in poverty and abuse and it adds some unfortunate implications that as long as you're born rich and privileged you're good.

That's another troubling thing...the way modern Batman is sometimes written and retcons done to Xavier, those characters would be HUGE a-holes if they were real people.

[Agent Z]

That's another troubling thing...the way modern Batman is sometimes written and retcons done to Xavier, those characters would be HUGE a-holes if they were real people.

Which is probably why some might see people like Luthor and Magneto as not all bad. Afterall, if Batman and Xavier can be seen as heroes despite what they've done, why can't Luthor and Magneto. Doesn't help that Luthor has actually saved the world a few times. Again, playing Devil's Advocate.

[Iron Maiden]

Doom, being Doomy



It's okeh, though, because he has his own personal sense of honor.

smh. The old droit du seigneur card. Let's start out by debunking the droit du seigneur or primae noctis** (Lord's First Night).Historians have determined this feudal practice to be a myth But even here Englehart isn't correct since it usually meant that if there was a marriage in the kingdom that the lord would get to spend the night with the bride first. Here we see Doom picking some female at random and there is no impending marriage. But they do stroll off into the woods only to be observed by the Shroud, Englehart's pet hero he created for this issue. So naturally he wants his new hero to make a good show of things. At least Bendis later gives us a more serious depiction of a sexual predator in Alias with the genuinely creepy Killgrave aka the Purple Man.

Englehart did try to introduce some adult themes at times but IMO they kind of backfired. He made Sharon Ventura a victim of a gang rape (it's strongly implied at least in a flashback scene) but instead of providing an empowering example of a woman surviving a horrible ordeal, she is turned into a monstrous female version of the Thing who is a trembling, fearful mess at times. Then there was that weird story in Doctor Strange (I've not read it in years) about Clea cheating on Doctor Strange with Ben Franklin. But then I guess the only female character he cared about was the annoying Mantis, the Vietnamese prostitute/Celestial Madonna. One thing about her is she can beat Doom in a contest of talking in the third person.


As for Steve Englehart, I think it's good practice to ignore any time he wrote Doom, Crystal (he turns her into a cheating, bored housewife) or Quicksilver. He also wrote the cheapskate Doom story that Dwayne McDuffie later reversed in his Damage Control. In fact in regards to Quicksilver, Brian Cronin wrote a whole column of how he kept trying to turn him into a supervillain even after other writers overturned his work.

** BTW I was surprised they sneaked that joke in when Tony talks about bringing it back in "Age of Ultron"

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

Magneto.


Maybe Eddie Brock Venom

Yes especially eddie brock as the delusional Venom.
He is a cannibal, and is blaming Spider-Man for his life choices with what happened to Sin Eater where he reported on a compulsive confessor.
His idiocy of Spider Man doesn't use lethal force so he's weak no it doesn't make him weak, also he stalked Mary Jane.

This Venom is a bitter delusional man that is so bitter and delusional that he's attempted to kill and torments Spider-Man because in his world Spider-Man is the villain and he's the hero.
And why because he refuses to take responsibility for his
Mistakes with the Sin Eater fiasco.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

To play a bit of Devil's Advocate, I think the reason why some of these villains can be thought of as not "purely evil" is that sometimes the heroes can be somewhat similar. Xavier segregates Mutants from humans just like Magneto. Lex Luthor is a sociopathic billionaire who uses his money and power to terroriZe those smaller than him but the same could be said of Batman at times. Add in that Luthor tends to have had a harder time than Bruce what with growing up in poverty and abuse and it adds some unfortunate implications that as long as you're born rich and privileged you're good.

Or they actually have a opportunity to go over the line and take advantage of the opportunity but they don't.
Certain ones have codes which mostly makes me think of Captain Cold with how he wants the Rogues to behave.

[Schrecken]

Yeah, for me it would be Magneto and Dr. Doom as well.

To start with Magneto, the guy formed the Brotherhood, a group basically dedicated to the superiority of mutants over humans. The goals of the brotherhood seemed to be either subjugating or to kill all humans. Sure he's made turns as a good guy, but the things he's done and what he believes in are wrong. I think wolverine said it best:

"Magneto's followers cling to the idea that he's noble. That the horrors he's survived- his family was wiped out in a Nazi death camp- excuse his actions. That his crusade is necessary. I just can't accept that. I just can't ever accept that hurting one group of people to help another is right"

For any good he has done, it pales in comparison to his acts of violence against the innocent and justifying that violence by saying it is for the greater good.

For Doom, as noble and dignified as he seems to be, he has a bad habit for blaming the troubles in his life on others. He blames Mephisto for his mother's torment, when she was the one who made the literal deal with the devil. He blames Reed for the accident that scarred his face. I'm pretty sure anything good he's ever done has only ever been in the service of his own goals and desperate need to acquire power. I do remember he killed the only woman he ever loved and wore her skin as armor to gain more magical power.

Sure he'd save a baby seal from getting clubbed if it was gonna help him dominate the universe, but he's just as soon turn it into a giant baby seal biological death ray cannon so he could get what he wants. He doesn't want the world to be a better place, he doesn't want peace or justice, he's a megalomaniacal psycho who wants total power and hides behind the face of a regal king. He's the guy that will do anything to prove he's better than everyone else, and then put the blame on everyone when he fails.

“Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.”

For any positive or selfless acts they may have done, Magneto and Doom's prior villainy, hunger for power or control and using facades to justify their actions make them just supervillians to me. Once you cross a line, there's no going back, especially when you can't ever admit what you did was wrong.

[Mr MajestiK]

Doom.

All day, everyday.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

Yeah, for me it would be Magneto and Dr. Doom as well.

To start with Magneto, the guy formed the Brotherhood, a group basically dedicated to the superiority of mutants over humans. The goals of the brotherhood seemed to be either subjugating or to kill all humans. Sure he's made turns as a good guy, but the things he's done and what he believes in are wrong. I think wolverine said it best:

"Magneto's followers cling to the idea that he's noble. That the horrors he's survived- his family was wiped out in a Nazi death camp- excuse his actions. That his crusade is necessary. I just can't accept that. I just can't ever accept that hurting one group of people to help another is right"

For any good he has done, it pales in comparison to his acts of violence against the innocent and justifying that violence by saying it is for the greater good.

For Doom, as noble and dignified as he seems to be, he has a bad habit for blaming the troubles in his life on others. He blames Mephisto for his mother's torment, when she was the one who made the literal deal with the devil. He blames Reed for the accident that scarred his face. I'm pretty sure anything good he's ever done has only ever been in the service of his own goals and desperate need to acquire power. I do remember he killed the only woman he ever loved and wore her skin as armor to gain more magical power.

Sure he'd save a baby seal from getting clubbed if it was gonna help him dominate the universe, but he's just as soon turn it into a giant baby seal biological death ray cannon so he could get what he wants. He doesn't want the world to be a better place, he doesn't want peace or justice, he's a megalomaniacal psycho who wants total power and hides behind the face of a regal king. He's the guy that will do anything to prove he's better than everyone else, and then put the blame on everyone when he fails.

“Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.”

For any positive or selfless acts they may have done, Magneto and Doom's prior villainy, hunger for power or control and using facades to justify their actions make them just supervillians to me. Once you cross a line, there's no going back, especially when you can't ever admit what you did was wrong.

Doctor Doom is notorious for blaming Mr.Fantastic for most of his damn problems.
That makes him a mount everest of egregious because not only does he have a amazing batting average which creates destruction he then has the damn audacity to blame Mr.Fantastic mostly and others when his plans fail.

Cartman in South Park constantly came up with reasons to respond for why he's not fat when unmistakably he is.

That's Doctor Doom on Steroids whenever it's brought up he failed or made mistakes, or it's visible to him he gives damn reasons why he didn't fail and it's not his fault.

He is 1 of the most delusional characters in fiction, of super villains, and of the Marvel Universe.

[Holt]

Was it Mark Waid that joked Doom would eat a baby if that somehow proved he was smarter than Reed Richards?

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

Was it Mark Waid that joked Doom would eat a baby if that somehow proved he was smarter than Reed Richards?

That seems less like a joke and more like to show how utterly brazen Doctor Doom is.
I would need to Google his name for what he said about Doctor Doom.

[Iron Maiden]

That interview was done around the time of Unthinkable. There are some elements that IMO Waid gets wrong there but that's another discussion.

Doctor Doom is notorious for blaming Mr.Fantastic for most of his damn problems.
That makes him a mount everest of egregious because not only does he have a amazing batting average which creates destruction he then has the damn audacity to blame Mr.Fantastic mostly and others when his plans fail.

Cartman in South Park constantly came up with reasons to respond for why he's not fat when unmistakably he is.

That's Doctor Doom on Steroids whenever it's brought up he failed or made mistakes, or it's visible to him he gives damn reasons why he didn't fail and it's not his fault.

He is 1 of the most delusional characters in fiction, of super villains, and of the Marvel Universe.

I think that is one case where Waid should stick to being the Superman expert because with Stan and Jack, Doom never blamed Reed for his problems. In fact, not many writers do and that is not the nature of their rivalry.

FF annual #2 by Stan and Jack is where Waid should have looked....notice that Doom himself says "What have I done?" not what Reed has done.




Later in a follow up story in the present we see another reason, which is a typical supervillain motive....eliminate the guy who's a threat to your plans. But at no point do you have a statement saying anything that happened in his life is all Reed's fault. Many things that shaped a young Victor Von Doom happened before they even met.

[Iron Maiden]

Hickman and Waid are friends and he has discussed the Fantastic Four with him but I think Hickman gets Doom in ways that Waid didn't.