Marvel LGBT Discussion

[klinton]

I don't think she's Bi, She's clearly ONLY had relationships with men, she just happens to be a very loving woman. Two chicks can't embrace without people saying they are lesbians. I feel as if I am in high school again.

This is why I find these discussions impossible to have. It's not that I don't have any interest in the subject matter, but I find that this sort of thing constitutes a large swath of the discussion.

As far as representation goes in the comics, I really, really like Teddy (Hulkling). He's a great character, and his relationship with Billy (the son of two of my favorite Marvel characters!!) is awful cute.

[BroHomo]

This is why I find these discussions impossible to have. It's not that I don't have any interest in the subject matter, but I find that this sort of thing constitutes a large swath of the discussion.

Sorry If that comes off dismissive, it shouldn't stop you from participating in the discussion. I'm just not seeing the lesbian subtext everyone seems to read.

[klinton]

Sorry If that comes off dismissive, it shouldn't stop you from participating in the discussion. I'm just not seeing the lesbian subtext everyone seems to read.

That was poorly worded on my part, my apologies. I was agreeing with you.

I don't see that overtures of friendship imply sexual attraction at all.

[Tiamatty]

Interesting idea about Angel.

I don't think she's Bi, She's clearly ONLY had relationships with men, she just happens to be a very loving woman. Two chicks can't embrace without people saying they are lesbians. I feel as if I am in high school again.

Normally, I'd agree with you. I don't think Kitty's bi, or that Dani and Rahne had any romantic interest in each other, or that any number of characters are bisexual. I agree that, most of the time, people really are just reading way too much into stuff.

With Storm, though, the relationship between her and Yukio just had way, way too much subtext. And I think it makes sense for her as a character. The fact that she's only had relationships with men is pretty easy to justify as men being the only ones who've pursued her.

Also, if Storm does wind up being outed as bisexual or pansexual, I would love it if Karma got annoyed at never knowing about it.

Well ya know one could say that it's not that complicated to understand that Storm is straight. She just has a lot of strong chick friends that she pals around with. Nothing wrong with that. You read that scene one way, and I read it another way. Let's just leave it at that.

The difference is that the idea of Storm being bi isn't a direct contradiction of the text, the way your comment about Prodigy was. Maybe Storm's not bi; at this point, certainly, there's no actual on-panel evidence of it, only mountains of subtext. With Prodigy, though, there is direct, on-panel, textual evidence that his powers did not "make" him bi, they simply helped him to discover something that was already there.

Well there's him and Black Panther, and Blue Marvel. There's almost No black hero's actually with Powers, and NO gay black hero's with powers. If they hadn't made Sunspot go the way of Michael Jackson He would've been my best bet as an LGBT black mutant.

There was also Bill Foster, and his son, Tom, while not seen often, seemed to be a genius, too. Still, the typical genius at Marvel is a white dude.

Good point on the powers. Maybe he could get powers.

[BroHomo]

As regards Of Storm and Prodigy. There is NO on text evidence on Storm being Bi, yet people continue to claim that she is, due to ON PANEL evidence. Prodigy coming out as bi is just under a dirty blanket due to his powers. If he woulda just allowed him to come out like a normal person there would be no doubt. but alas that was not the case.

[Tiamatty]

As regards Of Storm and Prodigy. There is NO on text evidence on Storm being Bi, yet people continue to claim that she is, due to ON PANEL evidence. Prodigy coming out as bi is just under a dirty blanket due to his powers. If he woulda just allowed him to come out like a normal person there would be no doubt. but alas that was not the case.

But he's not normal. That is the entire point. Gillen's YA was A METAPHOR! It was all about taking normal teenage experiences and depicting them through the lens of superheroics. That was the whole point of the run. In Prodigy's case, that meant his power filling in for normal experimentation. Prodigy literally couldn't have realized it in a normal way, because that would've gone against the entire purpose of it all. It simply wouldn't have fit the book, and since sexual realizations have become a pretty standard part of being a teenager, exploring that was something worth doing in the book.

I don't understand what the problem is. It's all frigging metaphor.

With Storm, people are looking at what's on-panel, and then trying to look for something beneath it. With Prodigy, he flat-out frigging said that his powers didn't make him bi. And trying to claim that his powers made him bi is completely, totally, 100%, straight-up factually, textually wrong.

[legion_quest]

But he's not normal. That is the entire point. Gillen's YA was A METAPHOR! It was all about taking normal teenage experiences and depicting them through the lens of superheroics. That was the whole point of the run. In Prodigy's case, that meant his power filling in for normal experimentation. Prodigy literally couldn't have realized it in a normal way, because that would've gone against the entire purpose of it all. It simply wouldn't have fit the book, and since sexual realizations have become a pretty standard part of being a teenager, exploring that was something worth doing in the book.

I don't understand what the problem is. It's all frigging metaphor.

With Storm, people are looking at what's on-panel, and then trying to look for something beneath it. With Prodigy, he flat-out frigging said that his powers didn't make him bi. And trying to claim that his powers made him bi is completely, totally, 100%, straight-up factually, textually wrong.

Amen to that. Testify!

[BroHomo]

But he's not normal. That is the entire point. Gillen's YA was A METAPHOR! It was all about taking normal teenage experiences and depicting them through the lens of superheroics. That was the whole point of the run. In Prodigy's case, that meant his power filling in for normal experimentation. Prodigy literally couldn't have realized it in a normal way, because that would've gone against the entire purpose of it all. It simply wouldn't have fit the book, and since sexual realizations have become a pretty standard part of being a teenager, exploring that was something worth doing in the book.

I don't understand what the problem is. It's all frigging metaphor.

With Storm, people are looking at what's on-panel, and then trying to look for something beneath it. With Prodigy, he flat-out frigging said that his powers didn't make him bi. And trying to claim that his powers made him bi is completely, totally, 100%, straight-up factually, textually wrong.

Did Bling! use her powers to discover she's gay?
Did Billy?
Hulkling?
Karolina?
Julie Power?
Rictor?
Shatterstar?
I should be estatic that theres a gay black hero in the Marvel universe but
A) It's Prodigy (Synch rip off)
B) He's depowered
C) He was INTRODUCED as straight
D)His coming out is under some cloudy thing about his powers.

It was just a subpar move in a subpar book, that everyone seems to love, mainly (it seems) because everyone in it was Queer. I know what a metaphor is. I understand that. I DON'T think what your are describing here IS a metaphor, or I guess it could be a really shitty one. His "powers" isn't a metaphor for his experimentation...not when he dated Surge (a girl) and kissed Hulking (a boy) BEFORE we were told he was Bi.

It's okay for fanboys to see lesbian subtext in Storm, when it's NEVER been shown on panel her having any romantic relationship with anyone other than a male. But I can't throw shade at how Prodigy was handled?

[Tiamatty]

Did Bling! use her powers to discover she's gay?
Did Billy?
Hulkling?
Karolina?
Julie Power?
Rictor?
Shatterstar?
I should be estatic that theres a gay black hero in the Marvel universe but
A) It's Prodigy (Synch rip off)
B) He's depowered
C) He was INTRODUCED as straight
D)His coming out is under some cloudy thing about his powers.

It was just a subpar move in a subpar book, that everyone seems to love, mainly (it seems) because everyone in it was Queer. I know what a metaphor is. I understand that. I DON'T think what your are describing here IS a metaphor, or I guess it could be a really shitty one. His "powers" isn't a metaphor for his experimentation...not when he dated Surge (a girl) and kissed Hulking (a boy) BEFORE we were told he was Bi.

It's okay for fanboys to see lesbian subtext in Storm, when it's NEVER been shown on panel her having any romantic relationship with anyone other than a male. But I can't throw shade at how Prodigy was handled?

None of those other characters had their sexualities revealed in stories that were designed, from top to bottom, as metaphors for being 18. In the context of Gillen's Young Avengers, there was simply no other way to do it. None. Having it done normally simply wouldn't have fit the reason the book existed.

Again. A normal way to discover one's bisexuality is to experiment. Kiss people of the same gender and see how it feels. Prodigy's power allowed him to experience that without actually doing it - the power served as a metaphor for experimenting. Just as the superhero call centre served as a metaphor for shitty jobs teenagers get. Just as basically every single thing in that entire run served as a metaphor for the experience of being 18.

But hey, you don't like how it was handled. Fine, whatever. That does not mean it's OK to just straight-up lie about how it was handled by claiming his powers made him bi. That point was specifically addressed on-panel, and explicitly stated as being false. I also still think it's absurd to suggest that there's some "cloud" over it. He was always bi, he just hadn't realized it.

As for the difference: One is reading things that may or may not be there. The other is rejecting what's actually there.

Also, Gillen's Young Avengers was fantastic. It was fun, funny, clever, gorgeous, with great characters, great interactions, a really cool story, and just all sorts of the brilliance one expects of a Gillen/McKelvie collaboration.

[BroHomo]

None of those other characters had their sexualities revealed in stories that were designed, from top to bottom, as metaphors for being 18. In the context of Gillen's Young Avengers, there was simply no other way to do it. None. Having it done normally simply wouldn't have fit the reason the book existed.

Again. A normal way to discover one's bisexuality is to experiment. Kiss people of the same gender and see how it feels. Prodigy's power allowed him to experience that without actually doing it - the power served as a metaphor for experimenting. Just as the superhero call centre served as a metaphor for shitty jobs teenagers get. Just as basically every single thing in that entire run served as a metaphor for the experience of being 18.

But hey, you don't like how it was handled. Fine, whatever. That does not mean it's OK to just straight-up lie about how it was handled by claiming his powers made him bi. That point was specifically addressed on-panel, and explicitly stated as being false. I also still think it's absurd to suggest that there's some "cloud" over it. He was always bi, he just hadn't realized it.

As for the difference: One is reading things that may or may not be there. The other is rejecting what's actually there.

Also, Gillen's Young Avengers was fantastic. It was fun, funny, clever, gorgeous, with great characters, great interactions, a really cool story, and just all sorts of the brilliance one expects of a Gillen/McKelvie collaboration.

you seem to be rejecting every relationship Storm has had with men. If I'm reading your post right, that means any character that interacts with another of the same sex COULD be read as having homosexual undertones.

It certainly didn't Read TO ME that Gillen had any idea what he was going to do with Prodigy. but hey that's me....I thought he turned a pretty cool teen book into a sappy Teen soap opera with crappier music than Diary of a teenage girl.

I fell like dating a girl is experimenting, but maybe it's not the same with you. Different strokes...and the like.
I respect your right to think Gillen's book was good, and Prodigy's sexuality was handled well. I Just don't think so.

[Tiamatty]

you seem to be rejecting every relationship Storm has had with men. If I'm reading your post right, that means any character that interacts with another of the same sex COULD be read as having homosexual undertones.

It certainly didn't Read TO ME that Gillen had any idea what he was going to do with Prodigy. but hey that's me....I thought he turned a pretty cool teen book into a sappy Teen soap opera with crappier music than Diary of a teenage girl.

I fell like dating a girl is experimenting, but maybe it's not the same with you. Different strokes...and the like.
I respect your right to think Gillen's book was good, and Prodigy's sexuality was handled well. I Just don't think so.

How am I rejecting Storm's relationships with men? I'm not saying she's a lesbian. I'm saying she often reads, to me, as being bisexual. And considering I've actually said earlier in the thread that I normally don't agree with characters who are friends being in love, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Storm is one of a very, very, very few characters who come across to me as being LGBT. Her friendship with Yukio, in particular, has so much subtext that it's practically canon at this point (Yukio was even on a cover showing all of Storm's past loves).

Gillen's said he was a fan of Prodigy for a while. Even back when he was writing Generation Hope, Gillen was a fan of the character. And I could be misremembering this, but I think he also mentioned that he had the idea for Prodigy being bi even before he was given YA to write.

A guy dating a girl isn't really experimenting; it's following the expected societal norms. Beyond that, we're talking about experimenting with the same gender.

Also, what was wrong with the music? I'll admit, I'm not big into the classic stuff that Noh-Varr listened to - I'm into indie shit, because I'm pretty sure I'm a hipster - but it's fine music. Nothing wrong with the Ronettes or Candy Staton.

[Fokken]

But he's not normal. That is the entire point. Gillen's YA was A METAPHOR! It was all about taking normal teenage experiences and depicting them through the lens of superheroics. That was the whole point of the run. In Prodigy's case, that meant his power filling in for normal experimentation. Prodigy literally couldn't have realized it in a normal way, because that would've gone against the entire purpose of it all. It simply wouldn't have fit the book, and since sexual realizations have become a pretty standard part of being a teenager, exploring that was something worth doing in the book.

I don't understand what the problem is. It's all frigging metaphor.

With Storm, people are looking at what's on-panel, and then trying to look for something beneath it. With Prodigy, he flat-out frigging said that his powers didn't make him bi. And trying to claim that his powers made him bi is completely, totally, 100%, straight-up factually, textually wrong.

Amen to that. Testify!

None of those other characters had their sexualities revealed in stories that were designed, from top to bottom, as metaphors for being 18. In the context of Gillen's Young Avengers, there was simply no other way to do it. None. Having it done normally simply wouldn't have fit the reason the book existed.

Again. A normal way to discover one's bisexuality is to experiment. Kiss people of the same gender and see how it feels. Prodigy's power allowed him to experience that without actually doing it - the power served as a metaphor for experimenting. Just as the superhero call centre served as a metaphor for shitty jobs teenagers get. Just as basically every single thing in that entire run served as a metaphor for the experience of being 18.

But hey, you don't like how it was handled. Fine, whatever. That does not mean it's OK to just straight-up lie about how it was handled by claiming his powers made him bi. That point was specifically addressed on-panel, and explicitly stated as being false. I also still think it's absurd to suggest that there's some "cloud" over it. He was always bi, he just hadn't realized it.

As for the difference: One is reading things that may or may not be there. The other is rejecting what's actually there.

Also, Gillen's Young Avengers was fantastic. It was fun, funny, clever, gorgeous, with great characters, great interactions, a really cool story, and just all sorts of the brilliance one expects of a Gillen/McKelvie collaboration.

[Silvermoth]

My, people are passionate in here!

[Darth Phoenix]

WELCOME TO THE THREAD!!!!



I don't think Avengers...Arena, A.I. and Undercover were "failures" because of Runaways. I Liked the premise of Avengers Academy, esp the follow up book Undercover. I think Karolina needs to get her powers defined more before joining the big leagues.

Speaking of Rainbow Queer Girls being on he Avengers team, You guys don't think Julie Power should get a push before Karolina/She was around since he 80's and I feel is a more likeable character. In regards to Xavin I think that characters is best left in limbo. The Skrull thing seems to be a bad example of diversity without really taking risks.

I like the Xavin and hope he dies tragically in her arms sine he touched her heart and protected Karolina. That is a story i would read. I like Julie Power but power pack fells more Xmanish.

[BroHomo]

How am I rejecting Storm's relationships with men? I'm not saying she's a lesbian. I'm saying she often reads, to me, as being bisexual. And considering I've actually said earlier in the thread that I normally don't agree with characters who are friends being in love, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Storm is one of a very, very, very few characters who come across to me as being LGBT. Her friendship with Yukio, in particular, has so much subtext that it's practically canon at this point (Yukio was even on a cover showing all of Storm's past loves).

Gillen's said he was a fan of Prodigy for a while. Even back when he was writing Generation Hope, Gillen was a fan of the character. And I could be misremembering this, but I think he also mentioned that he had the idea for Prodigy being bi even before he was given YA to write.

A guy dating a girl isn't really experimenting; it's following the expected societal norms. Beyond that, we're talking about experimenting with the same gender.

Also, what was wrong with the music? I'll admit, I'm not big into the classic stuff that Noh-Varr listened to - I'm into indie shit, because I'm pretty sure I'm a hipster - but it's fine music. Nothing wrong with the Ronettes or Candy Staton.

Calling yourself a hipster def disqualifies you as one

You read Storm being lesbian, I read Prodigy's coming out as suspect. It's just a difference.