Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, or Oracle?

[The_Greatest_Username]

Didn't Cass steal that cool Batgirl costume from Helena B?

[Carabas]

Didn't Cass steal that cool Batgirl costume from Helena B?

No. Bruce Wayne stole it from Helena.

And then later gave it to Cass. The Batdick was strong during that period.

Although in all likelyhood, the costume was designed by the creators with Cass in mind.

[t hedge coke]

No. Bruce Wayne stole it from Helena.

And then later gave it to Cass. The Batdick was strong during that period.

Although in all likelyhood, the costume was designed by the creators with Cass in mind.

Weirdly, it wasn't even that. There was a change in plans after the whole Helena The Bat Bertinelli thing had been developed, that necessitated Cass, though Cass was developed to be Batgirl. Not that that's a negative thing in any way.

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Oracle. It was a natural evolution to Barbara, just as Dick had gone from Robin to Nightwing.

How about Nightwing

Oh man. That brings back memories. Bad memories, but still.

[Babs]

I prefer Barbara in her role as Batgirl.

Oracle. It was a natural evolution to Barbara, just as Dick had gone from Robin to Nightwing.

But it really wasn't. It was anything but natural. Barbara Gordon didn't one day decide she had to grow up on her own and become Oracle, it was because she was unable to be Batgirl after being paralyzed that she had to come up with a new identity. That's not really much like Dick's evolution into Nightwing.
I mean, i don't really mean that as negatively as it sounds, but DC editorial had literally left Barbara for dead after The Killing Joke, and it wasn't until Kim Yale and John Ostrander took pity on her, and felt like DC editorial had done a great disservice to the character, that they created the Oracle role for Barbara in Suicide Squad just to keep the character alive and relevant.
I'm not saying Oracle wasn't special or unique, i mean, i love the fact that Yale and Ostrander cared so much about the character that they saved her from falling into obscurity, but i mean just that her "evolution" wasn't natural. It was a forced evolution. The new 52 could do better, and have her chose to be Oracle at some point in a couple of years or something.

[Lemurion]

For me it's Batgirl.

They did brilliant things with Oracle, but keeping Barbara in the wheelchair means letting the bad guys win.

[Babs]

For me it's Batgirl.

They did brilliant things with Oracle, but keeping Barbara in the wheelchair means letting the bad guys win.

"I get knocked down, but i get up again. You're never gonna keep me down!"

[Agent Z]

For me it's Batgirl.

They did brilliant things with Oracle, but keeping Barbara in the wheelchair means letting the bad guys win.

Only if you see her as being defined solely by what the Joker did to her.

I prefer Barbara in her role as Batgirl.



But it really wasn't. It was anything but natural. Barbara Gordon didn't one day decide she had to grow up on her own and become Oracle, it was because she was unable to be Batgirl after being paralyzed that she had to come up with a new identity. That's not really much like Dick's evolution into Nightwing.
I mean, i don't really mean that as negatively as it sounds, but DC editorial had literally left Barbara for dead after The Killing Joke, and it wasn't until Kim Yale and John Ostrander took pity on her, and felt like DC editorial had done a great disservice to the character, that they created the Oracle role for Barbara in Suicide Squad just to keep the character alive and relevant.
I'm not saying Oracle wasn't special or unique, i mean, i love the fact that Yale and Ostrander cared so much about the character that they saved her from falling into obscurity, but i mean just that her "evolution" wasn't natural. It was a forced evolution. The new 52 could do better, and have her chose to be Oracle at some point in a couple of years or something.

I understand people not liking how she got to that point, but the truth is that being Oracle was a good thing for the character. I'd have it that she was shot in the line of duty instead of fridged to torture Jim but at the end of the day I care more about her being Oracle than how she got to that point. Not that it excuses how TKJ treated her.

[Confuzzled]

Oracle. I loved how the role was basically a love letter to the character's resilience and badassery. And loved her mentoring Cass and Steph and being the vital info broker to the Justice League.

I also think Birds of Prey works best with Oracle. There's a strong poignancy to a retired/wounded costumed heroine co-founding and leading a team of heroines, ensuring they don't suffer a similar fate as her. That angle sets BoP apart from a regular all-lady team.

Also, she's great representation for people with disabilities.

[Aahz]

But it really wasn't. It was anything but natural. Barbara Gordon didn't one day decide she had to grow up on her own and become Oracle, it was because she was unable to be Batgirl after being paralyzed that she had to come up with a new identity. That's not really much like Dick's evolution into Nightwing.
I mean, i don't really mean that as negatively as it sounds, but DC editorial had literally left Barbara for dead after The Killing Joke, and it wasn't until Kim Yale and John Ostrander took pity on her, and felt like DC editorial had done a great disservice to the character, that they created the Oracle role for Barbara in Suicide Squad just to keep the character alive and relevant.
I'm not saying Oracle wasn't special or unique, i mean, i love the fact that Yale and Ostrander cared so much about the character that they saved her from falling into obscurity, but i mean just that her "evolution" wasn't natural. It was a forced evolution. The new 52 could do better, and have her chose to be Oracle at some point in a couple of years or something.

It is also worth mentioning that she afaik never showed any exceptional computer skills, or any other tech skills appart from constructuing her multi colour search light (which was maybe not even canon anymore at this point) before she became Oracle. So Oracle was not really a natural evolution of how she was written before.

[Carabas]

It is also worth mentioning that she afaik never showed any exceptional computer skills, or any other tech skills appart from constructuing her multi colour search light (which was maybe not even canon anymore at this point) before she became Oracle. So Oracle was not really a natural evolution of how she was written before.

Given that she was retired as Batgirl even before the Killing Joke (1988), she never really got the chance to develop a lot of computer and internet skills.

And Oracle at her best was always far more than just a really good hacker.

[Babs]

It is also worth mentioning that she afaik never showed any exceptional computer skills, or any other tech skills appart from constructuing her multi colour search light (which was maybe not even canon anymore at this point) before she became Oracle. So Oracle was not really a natural evolution of how she was written before.

This is undeniable. "Oracle" in that sense was an independent creation, and while i saw Cassandra as a completely different Batgirl from Barbara, when Stephanie became Batgirl, it really felt like DC was already working out a way to bring that original Batgirl back, at least as far as personality and design goes. Stephanie Brown was a lot like a young Barbara as Batgirl.
I mean i know for a fact that DC attempted several times to get Barbara out of the wheelchair and into the Batgirl costume. Even as far back as 1998. The look and costume of Kate Kane as Batwoman is actually an adaptation of a concept design made by Tony Lewis for Barbara Gordon's planned return as Batgirl in the late 90's.

[mathew101281]

I just felt Oracle was a more unique character then Batgirl. As good as she is Batgirl will always be just a female version of Batman. A very cool female derivative but a derivative nonetheless. Oracle was something different, something that if done right could have lifted Barbara Gordon out of the role as marginal Batman support character, and made her a major player in the DCU as a whole. She at one point was eventually the information broker for the entire Justice League, and the leader of her own team (BOP). I'm sorry as iconic as Batgirl is Oracle is so much cooler.

[Babs]

I just felt Oracle was a more unique character then Batgirl. As good as she is Batgirl will always be just a female version of Batman. A very cool female derivative but a derivative nonetheless. Oracle was something different, something that if done right could have lifted Barbara Gordon out of the role as marginal Batman support character, and made her a major player in the DCU as a whole. She at one point was eventually the information broker for the entire Justice League, and the leader of her own team (BOP). I'm sorry as iconic as Batgirl is Oracle is so much cooler.

I think the whole idea of a super-hacker is pretty much a 90's thing when most people still thought that the inside of a PC was equal to magic. IMHO, what you're describing there is actually a glorified support character. Oracle exists to serve other heroes. Even as the leader of the Birds of Prey, or mentor to the new Batgirls, she's sitting behind a computer in the clock-tower as a support character to those in the field doing all the physical work.

I'm not trying to bash Oracle, but when it comes down to it, Batgirl can hold her own title, Oracle can't. I don't mean that she isn't a very important character in the DCU, but it is how that is. Oracle as a superhero can't hold a book on her own, because she's the ultimate support character, and all you'd see is her sitting behind a computer for 20 pages skyping with Batman and Superman ect ect... That isn't to say she's not cool, or doesn't have a more meaningful purpose to the DCU than she does as Batgirl, because obviously she does, but as Batgirl she's capable of having much more thrilling adventures on her own.

[Carabas]

I think the whole idea of a super-hacker is pretty much a 90's thing when most people still thought that the inside of a PC was equal to magic. IMHO, what you're describing there is actually a glorified support character. Oracle exists to serve other heroes. Even as the leader of the Birds of Prey, or mentor to the new Batgirls, she's sitting behind a computer in the clock-tower as a support character to those in the field doing all the physical work.

Funny. I always saw it more like the Birds Of Prey team existing to serve Oracle. She was most definitely the one who was unquestionably calling the shots.

And she was never just a superhacker.