View Poll Results: Batgirl or Oracle?

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  • Batgirl

    50 36.76%
  • Oracle

    86 63.24%
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  1. #61
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    The demotion was completely intentional. Part of the whole point of the new 52 was to make their characters younger and less experienced. Just because Lobdell didn't get that or Tynion thinks its ok to have his leads do things like one shot the likes of Shiva doesn't mean that should be the standard other characters should be held to, or that other writers are doing something wrong by not having their characters do that same type of garbage.
    Simone was just trying to embrace what the New 52 did and was trying to rebuild her character's abilities and experiences over time, giving the readers character growth that they could see and experience with the character. Burnside did it too. That run started off by having Babs accidentally blowing up all her equipment, and had her struggling against two young girls with motorcycles and swords. Keeping her Oracle level skills and experience defeats the purpose of making her younger.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-29-2016 at 02:29 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The demotion was completely intentional. Part of the whole point of the new 52 was to make their characters younger and less experienced. Just because Lobdell didn't get that or Tynion thinks its ok to have his leads do things like one shot the likes of Shiva doesn't mean that should be the standard other characters should be held to, or that other writers are doing something wrong by not having their characters do that same type of garbage.
    Simone was just trying to embrace what the New 52 did and was trying to rebuild her character's abilities and experiences over time, giving the readers character growth that they could see and experience with the character. Burnside did it too. That run started off by having Babs accidentally blowing up all her equipment, and had her struggling against two young girls with motorcycles and swords. Keeping her Oracle level skills and experience defeats the purpose of making her younger.
    Younger, sure.
    I didn't get the impression that anybody else was less experienced, or lost most of the skills that they were known for.

  3. #63
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    They go hand in hand. You can't make a character, and their universe, younger and not have them also be less experienced. Thats what it means to be younger. Her skills as Oracle aren't lost, she's simply younger and not at that same point anymore. She has to redevelop them. The new 52 was meant to be a new starting point. We got a younger bachelor Superman that didn't know how to fly yet, we got a younger Wonder Woman who didn't know who or what she was, we got a JL that didn't know or trust each other as well, we got a rookie Cyborg that didn't grow up with the Teen Titans, we got a Nightwing that didn't lead any teams and had less friends then Babs, ect. They didn't just do this with Babs.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-29-2016 at 03:13 AM.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They go hand in hand. You can't make a character, and their universe, younger and not have them also be less experienced.
    You can, actually. Of course you can. It's all imaginary.

    But there's also a difference between "life experience" and "superhero skills."
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  5. #65
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    Ya, ya. Still if they have the same experience, the same level of skills, than for all intents and purposes they're not really younger.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-29-2016 at 03:40 AM.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Ya, ya. Still if they have the same experience, the same level of skills, than for all intents and purposes they're not really younger.
    Sure they are.

    Dick Grayson, over the years, has had his early Robin capabilities amped intensely on more than one occasion. Doesn't make him older during those early Robin years.

    Batman, with the "new"/current timeline, still has most of his Post-Crisis history, it's just been crammed into a shorter period of time.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    Sure they are.

    Dick Grayson, over the years, has had his early Robin capabilities amped intensely on more than one occasion. Doesn't make him older during those early Robin years.

    Batman, with the "new"/current timeline, still has most of his Post-Crisis history, it's just been crammed into a shorter period of time.
    Even if there are instances where Dick Grayson's early Robin capabilities were amped up, his Robin capabilities weren't made and aren't meant to be equal or exceed Nightwing's or his older self's capabilities. And Batman was the exception. For all intents and purposes he wasn't really meant to seem younger.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-29-2016 at 04:31 AM.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Even if there are instances where Dick Grayson's early Robin capabilities were amped up, his Robin capabilities aren't meant to exceed or be equal to his Nightwing or older self's capabilities. And Batman was the exception. For all intents and purposes he wasn't really meant to seem younger.
    I would say that All-Star Robin does blatantly exceed his traditional, say mid-90s Nightwing capabilities. Current Superman has been as physically capable, power-down events taken into perspective, as the one at the end of the Post-Crisis Era. Superboy in the Silver Age could fly, but his older form, the Golden Age Superman, could just jump really far when he first appeared.
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  9. #69
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    All-Star Robin is from a different continuity, where that Dick Grayson's older self is not mid-90s Nightwing but a crazed super powered Joker Robin. Current Superman couldn't fly at first and at first was not as powerful as he was post flash point. Silver age Superboy's older self wasn't Golden Age Superman but Silver age Superman. Ur comparing different incarnations of these characters from different continuities and ages.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-29-2016 at 04:56 AM.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    All-Star Robin is from a different continuity, where that Dick Grayson's older self is not mid-90s Nightwing but a crazed super powered Joker Robin. Current Superman couldn't fly at first and at first was not as powerful as he was post flash point. Silver age Superboy's older self wasn't Golden Age Superman but Silver age Superman. Ur comparing different incarnations of these characters from different continuities and ages.
    This is a new reality. It is a new continuity. The continuity we're currently in, for the bulk of books, is not the Post-Crisis Earth, but this new Post-Flashpoint one.

    That's the point of new continuities. You're not tethered to the old ones when you don't want to be.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    This is a new reality. It is a new continuity. The continuity we're currently in, for the bulk of books, is not the Post-Crisis Earth, but this new Post-Flashpoint one.

    That's the point of new continuities. You're not tethered to the old ones when you don't want to be.
    This is why I don't consider Barbara being Batgirl in the New 52 a demotion, because it's not the same Barbara. If pre-Flashpoint Barbara got her mobility back, ditched everything Oracle related, and called herself Batgirl again despite the fact that she was at least in her late 20s, that would have been a different story. But not so much here, and there's nothing preventing her from eventually growing into an Oracle-type role again or even something completely new.

  12. #72
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    oracle for me i think oracle shouldve stayed and they should have brought in cassandra as batgirl
    Last edited by Lex Luthor; 04-30-2016 at 08:23 PM.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by willienotwilliam View Post
    oracle for me i think oracle shouldve stayed and they should have brought in cassandra as batgirl
    Personally I'm happy that Cass is adopting a new identity (in this case her father's old) instead of Batgirl or Bat-anything. Same with Stephanie being Spoiler again. Those titles are their own and no one can replace them.

  14. #74
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    Oracle for me... not just because i like Barbara as Oracle better, also Cassandra was a bad ass Batgirl... she was totaly commited to the cause and she had nothing else but her Batgirl identity to do some good, she had no life other than being Batgirl bacuse of her father's extreme training. That was just perfect, she was the perfect batgirl. And I loved the costume, that spooky ninja looking awesome awesome costume.
    Last edited by Batarang; 05-01-2016 at 06:21 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyLookingSort View Post
    Personally I'm happy that Cass is adopting a new identity (in this case her father's old) instead of Batgirl or Bat-anything. Same with Stephanie being Spoiler again. Those titles are their own and no one can replace them.
    Only that, like Barbara, Cassandra was created to be Batgirl. If there was a title that Cass had to make her own, I'd prefer for it to be anything but the name that her abusive biological father left her. Then again, its not like Didio-era DC has any creativity left..

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