Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, or Oracle?

[adrikito]

I'm not an old fan ... but i remember how one old fan react with batgirl of burnside ..

For this, barbara should be oracle again

I did not like how they changed the character in burnside... For as I heard the description of Oracle, sure this moment in his career as heroin was better than batgirl of burnside..


I VOTE ORACLE

[Babs]

You know what? This will never be a fair contest until Oracle gets her own ongoing comic.

Also, i do wonder... people who are so pro Oracle always say she was more important in that role. I can't help but wonder, are these people actually fans of Barbara Gordon herself, or is it really just that she's "more important" to the characters you truly care about? It's a difference of priority.
Because i'm a fan of Barbara Gordon before anything else, and i like her more as Batgirl because she's a happier person in that role. Oracle may be a better character for the rest of the DCU, but Batgirl is a better character for Barbara Gordon.

The role in which i like Oracle was as Stephanie's mentor because it had that Batman Beyond vibe of the old bat training the new bat.

The way DC comics should have solved this problem is if Barbara found a way to pass on her knowledge as Oracle to someone else. This appeared to be happening with the Frankie Charles character in the Burnside run, but as it appears now, what i kinda feared would happen seems to happen now. That a new team takes over the title, and the whole build-up of Frankie as the new Oracle is being chopped off, just like they did with Alysia after Simone's run, and DC doesn't appear to have any desire to transport Frankie's 'Oracle' into other books. Which i think is a major missed opportunity.
I mean, if Batgirl and Robin can have their legacies, why shouldn't Oracle get a new girl to fill the role? Frankie Charles was damn awesome, and her story in Secret Origins really helped me to relate to her emotionally as a character.

[Agent Z]

You know what? This will never be a fair contest until Oracle gets her own ongoing comic.

Also, i do wonder... people who are so pro Oracle always say she was more important in that role. I can't help but wonder, are these people actually fans of Barbara Gordon herself, or is it really just that she's "more important" to the characters you truly care about? It's a difference of priority.
Because i'm a fan of Barbara Gordon before anything else, and i like her more as Batgirl because she's a happier person in that role. Oracle may be a better character for the rest of the DCU, but Batgirl is a better character for Barbara Gordon.

The role in which i like Oracle was as Stephanie's mentor because it had that Batman Beyond vibe of the old bat training the new bat.

The way DC comics should have solved this problem is if Barbara found a way to pass on her knowledge as Oracle to someone else. This appeared to be happening with the Frankie Charles character in the Burnside run, but as it appears now, what i kinda feared would happen seems to happen now. That a new team takes over the title, and the whole build-up of Frankie as the new Oracle is being chopped off, just like they did with Alysia after Simone's run, and DC doesn't appear to have any desire to transport Frankie's 'Oracle' into other books. Which i think is a major missed opportunity.
I mean, if Batgirl and Robin can have their legacies, why shouldn't Oracle get a new girl to fill the role? Frankie Charles was damn awesome, and her story in Secret Origins really helped me to relate to her emotionally as a character.

I feel that's kind of an unfair question given it's possible for people to be a fan of a character for different reasons. I've met people who were fans of Oracle yet didn't care for Steph or Cass. And as we saw in Barbara's initial book how happy she is depends on the writer and it's not like she was always miserable pre New 52.

Also, I don't think Oracle needs to be a solo act to be considered a better character.

[Bl00dwerK]

Oracle, just so Cassandra can be Batgirl instead!

[Babs]

I feel that's kind of an unfair question given it's possible for people to be a fan of a character for different reasons.

Not really, because as i pointed out, most of the reasons people give when they say they prefer Babs as Oracle is because "she's more important", which i feel shows that they care more about her role than her character.

And as we saw in Barbara's initial book how happy she is depends on the writer and it's not like she was always miserable pre New 52.

One of the reasons i don't really like Gail Simone's run is because editorial forced Gail to write Barbara as dark and gritty as possible, which seems odd when you realize how she's been portrayed in other media, and it remains odd that Gail was never allowed to give the book some levity. However, when you look at the character's history, you can see that the general portrayal of Barbara as Batgirl, like in Batman The Animated Series, is a more energetic lighthearted fun character. The character portrayal of Batgirl in the Burnside book is much more in line with how she's been portrayed outside the comics since the early 90's. Stewart, Fletcher and Tarr said that their main influences were The Animated Series and Yvonne Craig.

[dominus]

One of the reasons i don't really like Gail Simone's run is because editorial forced Gail to write Barbara as dark and gritty as possible, which seems odd when you realize how she's been portrayed in other media, and it remains odd that Gail was never allowed to give the book some levity. However, when you look at the character's history, you can see that the general portrayal of Barbara as Batgirl, like in Batman The Animated Series, is a more energetic lighthearted fun character. The character portrayal of Batgirl in the Burnside book is much more in line with how she's been portrayed outside the comics since the early 90's. Stewart, Fletcher and Tarr said that their main influences were The Animated Series and Yvonne Craig.

But her character on the TV shows was much more energetic and lighthearted than she ever was in the comics, even in the 60s. Different Batgirls for different audiences.

[Agent Z]

Not really, because as i pointed out, most of the reasons people give when they say they prefer Babs as Oracle is because "she's more important", which i feel shows that they care more about her role than her character.



One of the reasons i don't really like Gail Simone's run is because editorial forced Gail to write Barbara as dark and gritty as possible, which seems odd when you realize how she's been portrayed in other media, and it remains odd that Gail was never allowed to give the book some levity. However, when you look at the character's history, you can see that the general portrayal of Barbara as Batgirl, like in Batman The Animated Series, is a more energetic lighthearted fun character. The character portrayal of Batgirl in the Burnside book is much more in line with how she's been portrayed outside the comics since the early 90's. Stewart, Fletcher and Tarr said that their main influences were The Animated Series and Yvonne Craig.

If a character is more important in a story chances are they'll be better written. So I'd say people who prefer Orscle care about the character just as much as if not more than her role. Oracle is a preference for some just as Batgirl is a preference for some.

As for how Barbara, was generally portrayed before Oracle, characters change over time.

[Carabas]

You know what? This will never be a fair contest until Oracle gets her own ongoing comic.

Birds Of Prey was essentialy that...

Also, i do wonder... people who are so pro Oracle always say she was more important in that role. I can't help but wonder, are these people actually fans of Barbara Gordon herself, or is it really just that she's "more important" to the characters you truly care about?

Definitely a fan of the character. And it's always nice if your favourite characters do something unique instead of being a dime a dozen rooftop vigilante in Gotham.

Likewise, many Babs-as-Batgirl hardliners have, to me, always seemed more fans of her costume, and of Yvonne Craig, than of the character.

Because i'm a fan of Barbara Gordon before anything else, and i like her more as Batgirl because she's a happier person in that role. Oracle may be a better character for the rest of the DCU, but Batgirl is a better character for Barbara Gordon.

See, I never got that impression. Oracle was never a dark, moody, unhappy character (okay, exept for that year where DC was going to turn her into Batgirl again before changhing their minds, and they had her become depressed and incompetent to the point that people started to drop that every time she touched a computer, before going back to happy and hyper-competent after Steph got Batgirl instead).

The way DC comics should have solved this problem is if Barbara found a way to pass on her knowledge as Oracle to someone else. This appeared to be happening with the Frankie Charles character in the Burnside run, but as it appears now, what i kinda feared would happen seems to happen now. That a new team takes over the title, and the whole build-up of Frankie as the new Oracle is being chopped off, just like they did with Alysia after Simone's run, and DC doesn't appear to have any desire to transport Frankie's 'Oracle' into other books. Which i think is a major missed opportunity.
I mean, if Batgirl and Robin can have their legacies, why shouldn't Oracle get a new girl to fill the role? Frankie Charles was damn awesome, and her story in Secret Origins really helped me to relate to her emotionally as a character.

I don't see how this solves anything, because Oracle fans are not going to be happy if some other disabled girl takes over and starts to call herself Oracle. If anything, it makes things worse.
Being Oracle was more than a skillset to be passed around in much the same way that Batman is more than a skillset.

[Dataweaver]

Elseworld's Finest highlighted the best approach, IMHO: let her be both. Batgirl when she's out in the field, and Oracle when she's online. The key being that she still has and uses the “cyber-warrior” skill set alongside the “costumed vigilante” skill set, with the former being just as important as the latter.

And, of course, there still needs to be a period of time when she was stuck in a wheelchair and reinvented herself as Oracle. It's OK if that period is in the past now; I've never seen the need for her to be permanently crippled. But the story of her refusing to let her disability define her is itself a defining feature, and she needs to have reinvented herself as Oracle before regaining the use of her legs.

[Babs]

Definitely a fan of the character. And it's always nice if your favourite characters do something unique instead of being a dime a dozen rooftop vigilante in Gotham.

Meh... i guess you're right.I should clarify though... i tend to react a little on impulse. The real problem as a Babs-as-Batgirl fan i have is people who say Oracle was a better character because "she belongs in the wheelchair". It's mainly THAT attitude that makes me wonder if some of these Oracle "fans" ever thought about what that would be like if Babs were a real person. A real person waiting in a hospital for surgery on her spine, and some ******* tells her "You belong in the wheelchair".
The people who think Oracle as a function was more interesting than as Batgirl, that's something different, but it gets confusing sometimes, because those "She belongs in the chair" people often use Oracle's abilities as the reason, as if the chair is what gives Barbara her powers as Oracle.

Likewise, many Babs-as-Batgirl hardliners have, to me, always seemed more fans of her costume, and of Yvonne Craig, than of the character.

This is undeniably true. The Batgirl fans, specially that first generation, are probably more interested in the tight purple spandex and the actress rather than the actual character.

But because Barbara has been Batgirl in so many forms of media for so many generations now, that people like me really don't care about any of that crazy stuff from the 1960's. (May Yvonne Craig Rest in Peace)
I was introduced to Barbara through Batman The Animated Series and The Batman and such. Those versions are much more appropriate and relatable to a young female audience. She's a confident girl who decides on her own that she can do what Batman and Robin do. For a young female audience that's something awesome and inspiring, and something that's very very very important in our society. The whole "derivative of Batman" idea is certainly true from a certain point of view, but from another it's specifically this "Just because i'm female, doesn't mean i can't do what Batman and Robin do" element that makes the Batgirl character work for so many.
As she told Batman in Batgirl Year One when he asked her "why?": "Because i can!"

I don't see how this solves anything, because Oracle fans are not going to be happy if some other disabled girl takes over and starts to call herself Oracle. If anything, it makes things worse.
Being Oracle was more than a skillset to be passed around in much the same way that Batman is more than a skillset.

Yet Dick Grayson was able to take on the role of Batman, and fans loved it. The DC universe has shown that pretty much anyone can have a legacy, so i'm not really seeing how Oracle's skillset is THAT unique.
The way i see it, if you want others to accept Batgirl legacy characters like Cassandra and Stephanie, you shouldn't be having a problem with an Oracle legacy character, if done right.
I truly believe that the way Fletcher and Stewart set Frankie Charles up, Barbara's best friend from Burnside, combined with the algorithm that essentially IS Barbara's brain in a box, they pretty successfully created an Oracle2.0. Sadly, i don't see DC making plans to expand her role beyond the book, or even beyond Burnside.

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[bat_girl_cc]

The thing that i don't understand when is see DC higher-ups on interviews saying that "we love this universe..."...and then making incompreensible stuff, like giving important mantles to less-capable heroes...for exemple, Cass is much much much more capable fighter than any other batgirl or bat-family related female ever...and yet, as "fans of the universe" instead of doing what makes the most sense for that universe, no, they do what they like most...they give Batgirl mantle to Babs, they give wonder girl identity to Cassie Sandsmark instead of the much more capable Donna Troy, etc, etc...as editors, they should view the universe "from above" and decide basing on what makes the most sense, not on what would be cuttier, or stuff like that.
Imagine if this was real-life, wouldn't you want the most capable hero protecting you and your family and friends? or would you prefer a certain girl because she's prettier, hotter, funnier, or something like that?
As a matter of fact it dones't make sense that Batman knowing what he knows now hasn't even considered having Cass as Batgirl instead of Babs...i remember in the previous continuity, Batman saying to Cass: "remember, on those streets, you are me" and other stuff, really showing how important Batgirl is and what it represents to him, and i don't belive that Bruce see's himself on hippster Barbara of Burnside.
Sure, Cass is now "Orphan" and we know why...but whatever, and for those wondering, i do like Babs, but i think that she's bad for the batgirl role that Cass managed to turn into a respected role, and i would like to see her as Oracle again where she would actually matter again and in a big way.

[bat_girl_cc]

And that hype that the new Batgirl has received? all bull. see how the title is selling right now...and i like to keep myself updated and i keep up with the sales numbers in physical issues and i always check the digital sales to see who's doing good and who's doing less good, and Batgirl struggles to be on the top 10 even on DC's list only, if we look at comixology because it has books from other companies, Batgirl doesn't even appear on the first page of best selling books, and those are alot of books...the fact is, Batgirl of Burnside quickly became hot stuff on internet boards, but not amoung the people that actually buys the books, those started to drop it by the hundres every month.
And now, DC is giving Batgirl-Babs a rebirth, and apparently a similar tone, only now it seems like it could be better basing on what we know already, but it also seems like most of the problems will still be there.

[SneakyLookingSort]

The thing that i don't understand when is see DC higher-ups on interviews saying that "we love this universe..."...and then making incompreensible stuff, like giving important mantles to less-capable heroes...for exemple, Cass is much much much more capable fighter than any other batgirl or bat-family related female ever...and yet, as "fans of the universe" instead of doing what makes the most sense for that universe, no, they do what they like most...they give Batgirl mantle to Babs, they give wonder girl identity to Cassie Sandsmark instead of the much more capable Donna Troy, etc, etc...as editors, they should view the universe "from above" and decide basing on what makes the most sense, not on what would be cuttier, or stuff like that.
Imagine if this was real-life, wouldn't you want the most capable hero protecting you and your family and friends? or would you prefer a certain girl because she's prettier, hotter, funnier, or something like that?
As a matter of fact it dones't make sense that Batman knowing what he knows now hasn't even considered having Cass as Batgirl instead of Babs...i remember in the previous continuity, Batman saying to Cass: "remember, on those streets, you are me" and other stuff, really showing how important Batgirl is and what it represents to him, and i don't belive that Bruce see's himself on hippster Barbara of Burnside.
Sure, Cass is now "Orphan" and we know why...but whatever, and for those wondering, i do like Babs, but i think that she's bad for the batgirl role that Cass managed to turn into a respected role, and i would like to see her as Oracle again where she would actually matter again and in a big way.

"More capable" or "better fighter" doesn't mean anything, you could write any character being the best at something if you wanted to. And it seriously pisses me off when discussing the Batgirls it always seems like "the best fighter" is Cass's only attribute when you should focus on stuff like personality traits, interesting character flaws etc. Saying how someone is just best at something makes them seem Mary Sue.

[batalia]

To me, Batgirl is Barbara G. just like Batman is Bruce. Can't see or care about anyone else taking that title. I'm grateful to the Oracle thing and to those writers for doing something with Barbara when editors ordered to "cripple the bitch" but I viewed Oracle as a stepping stone while she healed not something she should be stuck in forever.

Batgirl book was doing good and selling better till they ruined the book with that burnside reboot and turned Barb into silly 15yo.

[Babs]

O boy... People if you're a Cassandra Cain Batgirl fan or a Stephanie Brown Batgirl fan or a... *giggle Betty Kane Bat-Girl fan, this thread isn't for you. It says Barbara Gordon: Batgirl or Oracle, not "Who is the best Batgirl, and why isn't it Barbara?"
This kind of disgruntled jealous attitude is why i'm having a hard time having a serious conversation with a lot of Cass Cain fans. This childish "my Batgirl is better than your Batgirl" because they can't accept that their favorite isn't carrying the title anymore.

Cass is much much much more capable fighter than any other batgirl or bat-family related female ever...

This is the age old pointless debate about superhero fiction. The "Lois Lane must either be the dumbest woman in the world" debate. Do you even realize how pointless humans dressing up in costumes to fight crime become in a world with super powered meta-humans? By your logic Cassandra should be handed the title of Batman, because she was able to beat Bruce in hand to hand combat in the old continuity, and easily beat Dick Grayson in the new one.
However, if you really want to get "that" serious about it, it's often been pointed out that while Cass is certainly a more capable martial arts fighter, she doesn't have Barbara's brains. Batman himself often outwits superior fighters by using his brains instead of his muscles, and as you can see in Batgirl Year One, this is how Barbara tends to handle things too. The reasons for being Batgirl isn't measured by the size of your muscles.

As a matter of fact it dones't make sense that Batman knowing what he knows now hasn't even considered having Cass as Batgirl instead of Babs

Because the Batgirl title is already owned by Barbara Gordon, and Bruce accepted her as such long ago. Why in the world would Bruce be so rude as to tell Barbara to hand over the Batgirl persona? Really, your bias leaks through your words here. Last i checked, in rebirth Bruce IS taking on Orphan and Spoiler and Red Robin. Is it really that hard to accept Cassandra is using a different persona?

Sure, Cass is now "Orphan" and we know why...

Because the Batgirl title is already owned by Barbara Gordon.

What you have to understand is that DC is a comicbook BUSINESS. Their words may sound prettier than their deeds, if not almost always. Every time DC has an event and the slogans go "This event changes everything!" and "we're bringing the characters back to their core" ect ect... It's a business, and these kinds of slogans and expressions are nothing but pure marketing. They love the DCU, sure. They also love money.

Subject derailment... We're not talking about who's a better Batgirl, but whether we like Barbara better as Batgirl or Oracle.