REVIEW: "Captain America: Civil War" is Everything We Want in a Superhero Movie (and More)

[Midvillian1322]

Didn't see any evidence that Crossbones was working with Zemo -- but whatever.

And it isn't simply that Iron Man flew there -- it's that they rounded up the Avengers, imprisoned them (which also means switching out their costumes for prisoner uniforms), had enough time for Stark to swtich into civies and then go interrogate them, and then go fly to Siberia. That's way too much time passing for Cap & Bucky not to have arrived in Siberia and confront Zemo. So yeah, it's a pretty big thing. There's simply no way all that transpired in the time frame it would take a Quinjet to go from Austria to Siberia and still have him arrive virtually behind them.

I didnt either im just saying somone was behind it rumlow was a dumb meathead, and Hydra wasnt there to help. Again its making assumptions doesnt matter either way Zemo used it to his advantage, you can say he knew something like that was gonna happen eventually

Need to see the movie again but we dont know what Cap and bucky had to do to get that far. Zemo left the front door open i think but we dont know what elsd they had to do to get that far. Again we dont see what they were doing in that base untill tony gets there not really. Can it be an issue sure but theres a reason no ones complaing about it. Its a small detail that probaly didnt occur to the General Audience or they chose to believe theres a reason for it rather then assume the people making the movie are idiots iono. Everyones motives made sense in the movie,the reason they fight, the reason they stop, then the reason they start again. The bad guys motives and agenda made sense, there humor was great, and most people loved all the action the airport scene being that thing people wont shut up about.

[Heroine Addict]

But he didn't orchestrate all of it. The accident by Wanda that led to the Sokovia accords was completely unrelated to what Zemo was doing. Perhaps he can be seen as an opportunist who seized the moment -- but he certainly didn't orchestrate everything (and there was no indication of his being a genius, just that he was really good at subterfuge). ...

I would say Wanda's costly mistake was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Something of the Sokovia Accords' magnitude would've already had to been in the works with a rough draft, at the very least. It was the U.N., with more than a 100 countries involved, there's no way an agreement of THAT scale & nature gets arrived at overnight... not when "politics as usual" are involved, and all the tangled intricacies of negotiations that implies. So it's doesn't require a leap of faith to deduce that Zemo was aware of the world's powers' intentions, and that the overall purpose of his machinations was to fan the flames of fear & discontent, insuring the Accords would be implemented & become a reality. Thus driving a permanent wedge between Cap & IM, due to their strong, opposing ideological sensibilities & philosophical differences on the matter. I'd also say there were plenty of hints given, that if not a genius per se... he was REALLY fuckin' smart!

[Heroine Addict]

... And I still can't get past how slow that quinjet was to go from the airport to Siberia...

Well, Cap and... his Bucky, lol... seemed to be takin' their time & in no rush, probably so they could catch-up & have their lil' heart-to-heart. Perhaps they even slapped the Quinjet on autopilot for a bit, so they could have a "quickie", before arriving in Siberia. I'm trying to remember when they landed, if either or both of them... had their hair messed up, were shown re-adjusting their uniforms, or... wiped their mouths with the back of their hands.

[Calighoula]

And it isn't simply that Iron Man flew there -- it's that they rounded up the Avengers, imprisoned them (which also means switching out their costumes for prisoner uniforms), had enough time for Stark to swtich into civies and then go interrogate them, and then go fly to Siberia. That's way too much time passing for Cap & Bucky not to have arrived in Siberia and confront Zemo. So yeah, it's a pretty big thing. There's simply no way all that transpired in the time frame it would take a Quinjet to go from Austria to Siberia and still have him arrive virtually behind them.

Black Panther was able to follow Tony undetected. That was purely a convenience. Makes you wonder if Tony's still using the suit he fixed "in the garage." But this is the same movie where War Machine fell too fast for Iron Man to catch him (or at least slow his descent).

[chico25]

But he didn't orchestrate all of it. The accident by Wanda that led to the Sokovia accords was completely unrelated to what Zemo was doing. Perhaps he can be seen as an opportunist who seized the moment -- but he certainly didn't orchestrate everything (and there was no indication of his being a genius, just that he was really good at subterfuge).

And I still can't get past how slow that quinjet was to go from the airport to Siberia while the Avengers were rounded up, imprisoned, "interviewed" by Stark, who then flew out to Siberia to join Cap & Bucky just as they entered the place. That's not nit picking or ridiculous-- that's just poor storytelling and editing.

The accident didn't lead to the accords, it was just a convenient moment for Ross to introduce them to the team. The accords were being worked on since Sokovia happened and it would be insane to think the UN would be able to get 117 countries to back a law in the time between Lagos and Ross showing up. But you're right that Zemo didn't orchetrate everything.

Zemo's plan was simple, get the tape and make sure Tony saw it to drive a wedge between the Avengers, everything else was him taking advantage of the situation as it changed. If the Hydra guy he tortured had given him the location of the base he had no reason to frame Bucky or kill anyone. He even tells the guy that if you don't give me the information I'll have to use bloodier methods to get it, which lead to him framing Bucky for the UN bombing to flush him out. He didn't expect Tony or anyone to show up in Siberia until he saw on the news that Cap and Bucky got away with a Jet and knew Bucky had his location. After that he let it be known that he framed Bucky to see if Tony would follow Cap to help stop him, which allowed him to watch the breakdown of the team first hand.

As for the jet thing, we don't know the location of the Raft in relation to Russia, so it could have been a short flight from the Raft to the base once Tony had the info and location. The team surrendered as soon as Cap got away, locking them up with no due process wouldn't take much time if they were cooperating. Not to mention that Stark's armor has been shown to be faster than the quinjets.

[Ishmael]

So 117 nations are negotiating the Sokovia accords for a couple of years and the Avengers don't know anything about this? That's ... implausible. But suspension of disbelief and all that.

And it's still a stretch to say that they had all that time to incarcerate the captured Avengers at the Raft -- have Stark show up (by helicopter, mind you, not in his suit of armor) -- question them -- leave, by helicopter -- and then change into armor and show up in Siberia just at the right time. Suspension of disbelief again sorts it out, but it doesn't really work -- it simply can't.

And the main thing that bothers me about the film the more I think about it, is how little a Cap film it is. All the really big emotional beats are for other characters (Tony Stark, T'challa, Winter Soldier, etc). For a Cap fan, which I am, it was disappointing in retrospect.

[kalorama]

And the main thing that bothers me about the film the more I think about it, is how little a Cap film it is. All the really big emotional beats are for other characters (Tony Stark, T'challa, Winter Soldier, etc). For a Cap fan, which I am, it was disappointing in retrospect.

I think that's really the movie's central weakness, esp. in comparison to the previous Cap movies. The thing that made First Avenger and Winter Soldier stand out for me (and why I consider them the best of the Marvel movies by far) is the strong sense of character, not just Steve but well-rounded, interesting supporting casts that were fully realized. Civil War was so crammed full of characters that no one really had enough room to really manuever outside of the fight scenes. When I posted my thoughts right after seeing Civil War I rated it behind Winter Soldier about on par or maybe slightly ahead of First Avenger. After having re-watched both First Avenger and Winter Soldier again, I'd have to say Civil War is a solid #3 behind them (in terms of Cap solos).

[Calighoula]

So 117 nations are negotiating the Sokovia accords for a couple of years and the Avengers don't know anything about this? That's ... implausible. But suspension of disbelief and all that.

And it's still a stretch to say that they had all that time to incarcerate the captured Avengers at the Raft -- have Stark show up (by helicopter, mind you, not in his suit of armor) -- question them -- leave, by helicopter -- and then change into armor and show up in Siberia just at the right time. Suspension of disbelief again sorts it out, but it doesn't really work -- it simply can't.

And the main thing that bothers me about the film the more I think about it, is how little a Cap film it is. All the really big emotional beats are for other characters (Tony Stark, T'challa, Winter Soldier, etc). For a Cap fan, which I am, it was disappointing in retrospect.

It's barely a Civil War movie, even (more like Some Major Disagreements). After TWS, I couldn't wait to see where they were going next. It was a little soon for another Avengers movie.

[Sighphi]

Zemo's plan was simple, get the tape and make sure Tony saw it to drive a wedge between the Avengers, everything else was him taking advantage of the situation as it changed. If the Hydra guy he tortured had given him the location of the base he had no reason to frame Bucky or kill anyone. He even tells the guy that if you don't give me the information I'll have to use bloodier methods to get it, which lead to him framing Bucky for the UN bombing to flush him out. He didn't expect Tony or anyone to show up in Siberia until he saw on the news that Cap and Bucky got away with a Jet and knew Bucky had his location. After that he let it be known that he framed Bucky to see if Tony would follow Cap to help stop him, which allowed him to watch the breakdown of the team first hand.

If Zemo knew what was on the tape then why did he kept asking about it?

It seemed more like he wanted to use Bucky to drive the wedge. What was in the base was a bonus.

[kalorama]

If Zemo knew what was on the tape then why did he kept asking about it?

It seemed more like he wanted to use Bucky to drive the wedge. What was in the base was a bonus.

He wasn't asking about what was on the tape. He already knew from decrypting the Hydra files that Widow leaked that Bucky killed the Starks. He was asking about it to find out where it was. He wanted the mission report--including the tape--as physical evidence of the murder he could throw in Tony's face.

[IamGod]

Hi all,
Some friends of mine do a weekly podcasts on all things superhero TV and they've done a special on Civil War.
Thought you guys might like to check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKE_CZJuQ0E

First time posting but I just have to ask- did anyone else feel like this was more Iron Man:Civil War? I feel like Cap was a bit left behind in (supposedly) his own movie...

[RikWriter]

I think that's really the movie's central weakness, esp. in comparison to the previous Cap movies. The thing that made First Avenger and Winter Soldier stand out for me (and why I consider them the best of the Marvel movies by far) is the strong sense of character, not just Steve but well-rounded, interesting supporting casts that were fully realized. Civil War was so crammed full of characters that no one really had enough room to really manuever outside of the fight scenes. When I posted my thoughts right after seeing Civil War I rated it behind Winter Soldier about on par or maybe slightly ahead of First Avenger. After having re-watched both First Avenger and Winter Soldier again, I'd have to say Civil War is a solid #3 behind them (in terms of Cap solos).

Yeah, I would totally disagree with that. So would most critics from what I've read, but I definitely disagree. Every character had at least a moment and there was room for all of them.

[Sighphi]

He wasn't asking about what was on the tape. He already knew from decrypting the Hydra files that Widow leaked that Bucky killed the Starks. He was asking about it to find out where it was. He wanted the mission report--including the tape--as physical evidence of the murder he could throw in Tony's face.

He kept asking what happened on that date. He asked that Hydra dude and he asked Bucky. Doesnt sound like he knew what happened. it just sounds like he wanted to use Bucky and his latest mission to cause the chaos he wanted.

[ZeroBG82]

He kept asking what happened on that date. He asked that Hydra dude and he asked Bucky. Doesnt sound like he knew what happened. it just sounds like he wanted to use Bucky and his latest mission to cause the chaos he wanted.

He never once asks what happened on that date. He always says the same thing. "Mission report, December 1991." He's looking FOR THE REPORT. He may not know the specifics of the mission, hence why he's looking for it, but he certainly knows the more general details. That the Winter Soldier killed the Starks. He's looking for verifiable proof of what he already knows.

[kalorama]

Yeah, I would totally disagree with that. So would most critics from what I've read, but I definitely disagree. Every character had at least a moment and there was room for all of them.

Oh well. Different strokes. And "at least a moment" is a very low bar, esp. when measured against the more extensive character work we saw in First Avenger and Winter Soldier. As I said previously, I thought Scarlet Witch had some character moments that were among the best parts of the movie, which made me even more disappointed that they weren't explored in more depth. And that, ultimately, was my issue with Civil War. There were so many characters who needed "a moment" that very few of those moments were delivered with any real depth or substance.

I enjoyed Civil War and thought it was a pretty good movie. But when held up next to the previous Cap movies it falls a good bit short. That's not really a knock, however, because I think the first two Cap movies were far and away Marvel's best output and a high bar to clear. Basically, I think all of Marvel's other stuff falls short of First and Winter. Civil War felt like "just another Marvel movie" to me. That's not necessarily a bad thing because most of Marvel movies are, at the very least, generally enjoyable entertainments. But it's a letdown in relationship to the standard set by the first two Cap movies.