Talia al Ghul is a piece of...

[ilovelocust]

I would like to point out that Talia didn't kill Damian. Heretic killed Damian because he thought that would make her love him. It very much did not and she killed Heretic for it.

That said, I like how Morrison portrayed Talia. It felt very much like a character that once had a chance to choose a better path, but life and her own choices destroyed most of her good characteristics.

[Nick Miller]

Morrison Talia was the best Talia

Batman inc #4, doesnt get better than that

[godisawesome]

Part of it is that it's suppose to come off as something of a caricature, it's suppose to be slightly ridiculous. Talia concocts this plan that is suppose to play towards Bruce's need to indulge in the ridiculous: matching "wits" with mental patients, evil scientists with doomsday devices, elaborate death traps, the whole shebang.
She herself sees it all as ridiculous, she's crafted this unbeatable nemesis for Bruce in her spare time, she already "controls the world" by trading in guns and drugs, etc. The whole Leviathan thing with the skull mask, it's stage dressing to attract Bruce's attention, because he's a ridiculous child in a halloween costume who needs a cartoonish villain so he can play his silly game.
She has to be over the top, because that's the only way Bruce will notice, it's the only thing he understands from her perspective.
Morrison could have executed some of it a little better, but I understand why it was the way it was.

And my issue is strictly a matter of taste; I don't myself enjoy the moments where Morrison goes for meta-commentary in a character when I believe a more straight portrayal would be more dramatic. In the same way that I can understand having Red Hood become a spoof on 90's anti-heroes but don't enjoy it, I didn't enjoy Talia "play acting" to get Bruce's attention.

A general rule of thumb for me is that I prefer that the justification for a characters portaryals is rooted in the old Deconstruction-Reconstruction arena than in meta-commentary. To me, a Talia whose "virtues" are torn apart in story in a dead serious way and then restructured in a way that we can see where her seeming-empathy was focused only on family members and thus not true empathy, that she is brave and brilliant but has those traits unfettered from righteousness and humility, and that has many other admirable qualities that could conceivably conceal her selfish and sociopathic nature would have worked better than a woman who walks around like she's part Austin Powers Badguy, walking a round monologuing just to express how she's a classic villainess.

It's also a general criticism I have of Morrison's work in general; I'm that rare fan who didn't really care for Simon Hurt at all, and it really was strictly a matter of the voice that Morrison gave him to portray his meta-fictional aspects. It's completely subjective; I still admire just the sheer craftsmanship you get out of a Morrison story. It just feels a little bit more farcical to me. which is probably the point; as much as I debate escapism in my comics, I prefer being sucked into the illogical-but-seemingly-sane world of regular comics, and Morrison is going for a work that feeds at least in part off our knowledge of tropes and cliches being lampshades and prodded at. It kind of breaks my suspension of disbelief just for a bit, and I don't personally feel the trade off in getting those points made and ideas across is worth losing engrossing, complex, and sometimes hard to totally grasp characterization.

[Doctor Bifrost]

And my issue is strictly a matter of taste; I don't myself enjoy the moments where Morrison goes for meta-commentary in a character when I believe a more straight portrayal would be more dramatic.

I agree. For me it's one thing for readers to say, "You know, in The So-called Real World™, Batman would be completely ridiculous, a crazy person, and probably dead or in jail within a week. But in the fictional setting in which he lives, for whatever reasons - difference in culture, difference in the effects of determination and will power, even differences in human biology, whatever - it works and makes sense." And then I can either accept that or reject that as a matter of my suspension of disbelief. (And if I reject it, then the way I engage with the story would be quite different. I'd experience it as silly - which is different from knowing that it's silly by any "realistic" standards, but still experiencing it as dramatic.)

But it's very different when a character in the story says, "Batman is silly, and ridiculous, and crazy, and I'm going to use those traits to trick him." And it works. That usually really distances me from the story, no matter how well it's crafted. And Morrison is very good at his craft - just not always, as with you, to my taste. If it's just a one-off, out of continuity, well, that's one thing. Otherwise, though, it starts cutting into my suspension of disbelief for the whole enterprise.

I realize not all readers see it this way, and I do not begrudge them their enjoyment.

[t hedge coke]

I think this "meta" is getting a little over-egged here. She's not all, "I'm going to take your genre apart," she's addressing a very real (in-world) man's very noticeable and real (in-world) tendencies and preferences and making fun of his life. That's about as meta as someone coming on here and making fun of us for liking comics and talking about them on the internet.

Is there implicit criticism of Batman in the story? Sure. But, the majority of it is in-world criticism.

I'm on the far end here, from some posters though, in that I think Talia actually gets more personality in Inc and that first storyline in Batman than she has in a lot of earlier stories, more angles. In the same way I think he wrote a more subtle version of Batman makes criminals maybe think Batman is only robots in Inc, compared to the previous time it was done. The real difference, to me, is just that he doesn't give Talia much in-world or meta forgiveness. She's a grown woman and she burns herself down (and beats Batman, so there's that).

His Kathy Kane, though, while it plays strong to keep her simplified and nearly off the page all the time, it's not a remotely rounded or deep take.

[adrikito]

I see the last 3 Batman movies and disgusts me .. In the 1st movie she ask help from Batman and the 3rd movie she try enslaving this for his plans..

In the comic with Leviathan it was also tremendous.. his son is only his son, if she can manipulate the child.


She is a woman that alone is worth guild on occasion.. but not worth trust her or you fall into their trap. I as Batman's wanted as far as possible, confidence 0%.. is a false woman.. a bitch.. I trust more in catwoman, even in ivy or harley(the crazy woman)..

[DamianThomas]

I would like to point out that Talia didn't kill Damian. Heretic killed Damian because he thought that would make her love him. It very much did not and she killed Heretic for it.

That said, I like how Morrison portrayed Talia. It felt very much like a character that once had a chance to choose a better path, but life and her own choices destroyed most of her good characteristics.

She put a major bounty on Damian's head and that nearly got him killed before. And it was thanks to her that the Heretic was even in Gotham to begin with.

[adrikito]

She put a major bounty on Damian's head and that nearly got him killed before. And it was thanks to her that the Heretic was even in Gotham to begin with.

it is as you say.. She is an enemy and nothing else..

When I saw Talia in Robin Son of Batman.. Talia apologizing to Damian? You think it is normal to do something like someone to your son? NO. You have no excuse. Woman, you are as crazy as the worst of Arkham.

[phantom1592]

Didn't read it... But,

Is putting a bounty out on him THAT big of a deal? This kid was hand trained by Ra's al Ghul to be his eventual heir... He's supposed to be the best combination of League of Assassins AND Batman?!?

I have a feeling that his 'training' with the LoA involved surprised matches to the death three times a week. Any 'bounty' put on him sounds like more training to me... One of many reasons I can't stand Damian.

Did Talia ACTUALLY do it thinking someone would actually SUCCEED?

[t hedge coke]

The bounty is more to make Batman stop putting him out there as Robin, and drive a wedge between them. She's in charge of the biggest assassins out there, and unleashes them on Gotham, but on her son? Low rent guys like Goat Boy. Who fail.

It's a feint (and the first part of her she-thinks-it's-witty-but-really-it's-oblique) goatherder parable. Which is something I actually really liked with Morrison's Talia. The four major appearances/gambits she makes, she's too educated for her own good, for simple, direct, cheap gimmicks the way the Mad Hatter or Riddler can do them. She doesn't just do a gimmick she's got to keep spicing it up and complicating it.

[PowerPlay25]

I kind of agree with both sides of the argument. I think Talia's ultimate choice would've been and ultimately, will always be, evil. That doesn't mean she's not complicated and IMO GM failed to give her sufficient nuance or character development. It might as well have been a new character entirely, more often then not. Talia, when true to form, whether on the side of the angels or not, is never obvious. She's sly, subtle and Machiavelli. Attacking Gibraltar with Man-Bats??????? Oy. This is a woman who played Lex Luthor for a chump and bankrupted his company and pretty much all of his other assets out from under him. Talia Al Ghul is the farthest thing from a bleeding heart, she's almost clinically cold, and that 9 times out of 10 is how she approaches her goals, be it revenge or something else. GM made her a shrieking, scrailing, divorcee who loses all rationale when dealing with Batman. But GM doesn't pay attention to character history, the Jean Grey character of X-Men fame has never recovered from what he did to her.

Other writers have managed to write her as evil but dimensional. Peter Tomasi, Loeb, Gail Simone, Scott Lobdell. Under these writers I had no problem understanding why Talia is able to pull off all of the shenanigans she does. Her role in the Society was very discreet, I wouldn't be surprised if the Bat Family and others don't even know of the role she played in the fate of Bludhaven. She wasn't to raised to value life other than her own, her Father and through her own choice, when written well, Damian and Bruce. Minions and other people are just there to be used and disposed of when it suits her, this very much makes her a villainess but GM wrote her as mustache twirling, where most writers depict this aspect of her character as the way she was raised and she doesn't see or WONT see, that it's wrong. She really is like an indoctrinated Ra's Al Ghul disciple, just a privileged one.

As for Batman's feelings for her, I think what is ultimately telling, is that he has never put her in jail. He's put her father in Jail, he even put Selina in jail (during No Man's Land) but Talia, for all she's done to him and to the world, he's never turned her in. Maybe he hopes she will one day change. He could have done something while she was publicly going by the name "Talia Head" and running Lexcorp. But he really just kept an eye on her to see if any of her schemes were getting to out of hand. Dick Grayson has also had the opportunity to put Talia in Jail but all he ever does is warn her not to cause trouble. I loved that time they ran into each other in Manhattan and Dick accused her of being behind some artifact thefts and Talia volleyed "Do you take me for a common thief? Do I look like Selina Kyle?" Talia tends to get special treatment from the Bat-Family but even outsiders tend to leave her be because she doesn't come off as threatening. Superman knew who she was but he didn't pursue exposing Talia's identity to the world, even after her role in the Tower of Babel.

The only thing I did like about GM's Talia, was the small interaction she was able to have with her mother and how her mother told her, if you want to survive in the world and if you want to win, let them all think your helpless. That's something I think Talia played to the hilt and I think it's something that allowed her to get under Bruce's skin in those early days. She'll probably always have a hold on him on one level or another because of it.

I know that was a lot of rambling but this is an interesting discussion and I've grown really fond of Talia Al Ghul.

[t hedge coke]

GM made her a shrieking, scrailing, divorcee who loses all rationale when dealing with Batman. But GM doesn't pay attention to character history, the Jean Grey character of X-Men fame has never recovered from what he did to her.

He wrote some of Jean Grey's finest scenes. The "I'll catch you" with Xavier? Jean at the gates of the mansion with all the students? Her chats with Beast or her shutting down Cyclops when he was being self-absorbed and too image conscious? Glorious. Her attack/curing of Emma Frost? Flawless. And, he brought her back as soon as he killed her. That no one else has since is hardly his fault.

As far as Talia, she never shrieked or scrailed. As for losing perspective: She won.

She beat Batman. She conquered a large part of the world. She ran the show.

How many Batman villains have accomplished all that she did? How many legitimately beat Batman and had to be taken down by others?

Doesn't pay attention to character history? He pays a lot more attention than most writers coming on, because everything counts, particularly on his X and Batman runs. How would Gaucho or "Elva Barr" even make appearances if he didn't pay attention to character history? How would so much of Talia's first appearance get actually reused right on panels? Or references to at least half a dozen other Talia stories?

I'm cool with people being dissatisfied, but "shrieking" and "ignoring character history" don't seem to wash to me, because they never happened.

Heck, she shrieks less than the Joker or her father, who's seen, iirc, literally shrieking and raging. Mostly, she strutted around being in command.

[JBatmanFan05]

Yes, Morrison does a ton inner conflict and emotion with Talia. She had infiltrated the Black Glove we later learned, she executed a slow secret coup of her father, etc, etc, etc. She was all sorts of Machiavellian.

Morrison's Talia is just very realistic in that she has a lot of her father's traits (she lived under his rock as a sole overprotective parent) but is much more plagued emotionally by them. She's cruelly resolute (a trait of antisocial psycho cult leaders) about being finished being rejected by Bruce (and having been left with his child) and her perceived corruption of Damian by Bruce, but struggles with her decisions, her attempt to be like her father about these matters. Bruce finally brings out Talia's inner Ra's and she takes to it and struggles with it in equal measure.

if he didn't pay attention to character history? How would so much of Talia's first appearance get actually reused right on panels? Or references to at least half a dozen other Talia stories?

Morrison finally settles the conflicting stories of Talia's mother, that's how much he payed attention to her history.

[PowerPlay25]

Doesn't pay attention to character history? He pays a lot more attention than most writers coming on, because everything counts, particularly on his X and Batman runs. How would Gaucho or "Elva Barr" even make appearances if he didn't pay attention to character history? How would so much of Talia's first appearance get actually reused right on panels? Or references to at least half a dozen other Talia stories?

I'm cool with people being dissatisfied, but "shrieking" and "ignoring character history" don't seem to wash to me, because they never happened.

Really?????? Because I think rewriting the backstory so that Talia drugged and raped Batman is a pretty BIG disregard of character history.

He wrote some of Jean Grey's finest scenes. The "I'll catch you" with Xavier? Jean at the gates of the mansion with all the students? Her chats with Beast or her shutting down Cyclops when he was being self-absorbed and too image conscious? Glorious. Her attack/curing of Emma Frost? Flawless. And, he brought her back as soon as he killed her. That no one else has since is hardly his fault.

I thought he made her devoid of ALL personality and just had her flash the Phoenix and call it "character development." I think her's was the only point of view I didn't get during the Jean-Cyclops-Emma triangle. The latter two got character beats and Jean was just shown doing power displays. And Morrison said his "Here Comes Tomorrow" storyline (God Awful on it's own) as his final word on the Phoenix. Meaning she was dead or in that white hot room nonsense he invented. I just don't care for his writing, Jean Grey was his ex-girlfriend, Emma Frost was the woman he ended up with and Batman and Talia were parents going through a divorce??????? Sigh. I'll never get the appeal of him as a writer.

I'm cool with people being dissatisfied, but "shrieking" and "ignoring character history" don't seem to wash to me, because they never happened.

And I'm cool with people liking his "work" even if he does disregard character history. Date raping, mask-wearing (I understand the villain name "Black Mask" was taken), child murdering creature he called Talia just wasn't the nuanced villainess I love to hate. But I'm glad some were riveted.

A

[t hedge coke]

Really?????? Because I think rewriting the backstory so that Talia drugged and raped Batman is a pretty BIG disregard of character history.

He had Batman say that happened, in a moment of anger.

Batman was wrong. (And, Morrison, yes, was wrong, though he was referring to an out of continuity event anyway.)

What we saw on panel was not what Batman said happened.

Emma and Jean are his wife and his ex? No. They're Emma and Jean. This is just weirdly reductive. It's like suggesting Wolverine is John Byrne and Silver Fox is Chris Claremont. You can say it. It'll sound stupid there, too. But, it doesn't do any good.

It's not as if Cyclops never cheated on a woman before. Or, if other psychics hadn't made plays for him. We had a year or two of Psylocke doing just that.

But, Jean was in no way without personality or she wouldn't be able to be sad, be happy, make jokes, get angry, or have a different dynamic with each of the other major characters in the run. And, she does. She doesn't relate to Hank the same way as Scott or Emma or Charles. If she was a one note caricature, surely she would behave and relate to them all in one note fashion.