Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 88
  1. #46
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    322

    Default

    He had Batman say that happened, in a moment of anger.

    Batman was wrong. (And, Morrison, yes, was wrong, though he was referring to an out of continuity event anyway.)

    What we saw on panel was not what Batman said happened.
    Humph. I've never seen the scene given that subtext by anyone associated with DC. GM admitted he had never read the origin story of Batman and Talia's son (why bother with a little thing like character history, even out of continuity character history if your going to reference it) He just said he "messed up a lot of the details." He turned Talia into a out and out harpy because he wanted to tell a story about the kid get's overlooked in divorce (kid you not, you can look it up). Batman and Talia grew to hate each other like his mom and Dad did, or some such nonsense. Check please.

    I won't get into X-Men accept to say that Pre-Morrison I liked Jean Grey and after he got his hands on her, I felt like I was reading about a robot, one as fascinating as pocket lint and was actually glad when she was killed off because I found her that devoid of personality. I don't recall seeing Jean exhibit any emotion after the affair came out, plenty of fire parrot appearances though.

    In any case, I'm glad GM isn't working with any characters that matter to me anymore. He always leaves them in bad condition.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Weihai
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerPlay25 View Post
    Humph. I've never seen the scene given that subtext by anyone associated with DC. GM admitted he had never read the origin story of Batman and Talia's son (why bother with a little thing like character history, even out of continuity character history if your going to reference it) He just said he "messed up a lot of the details."
    And, the next time we cover it, the only time in his run we actually see it, it goes very differently from what Batman said.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerPlay25 View Post
    He turned Talia into a out and out harpy because he wanted to tell a story about the kid get's overlooked in divorce (kid you not, you can look it up). Batman and Talia grew to hate each other like his mom and Dad did, or some such nonsense. Check please.

    I won't get into X-Men accept to say that Pre-Morrison I liked Jean Grey and after he got his hands on her, I felt like I was reading about a robot, one as fascinating as pocket lint and was actually glad when she was killed off because I found her that devoid of personality. I don't recall seeing Jean exhibit any emotion after the affair came out, plenty of fire parrot appearances though.

    In any case, I'm glad GM isn't working with any characters that matter to me anymore. He always leaves them in bad condition.
    "Harpy." "Shrieking."

    None of this is in there.

    As far as one note, if she's one note, why do we see her happy, sad, scared, brave, angry, vengeful, romantic, cruel, frustrated, and a range of other states during the run?

    As far as Jean, if she's not showing emotion, why make jokes? Why cry? Why get frustrated? Why take someone's hand and say nice things to them? Why turn away from someone in disgust? Why hug someone? Why lie in bed not touching your husband but telekinetically picking up a condom along with the item you wanted? Why get furious at an extra-marital affair and then cure the woman sharing thoughts of sex with your husband and bring her back to life?

    He left Jean Grey having resurrected her, what, three times in six issues? Establishing thus that she can come back whenever a writer wants her to. And, having her save the world, not once in Here Comes Tomorrow, but at least on two separate occasions.

    Again, you can dislike that take. No one's going to say you can't, but to call that "robot" and say there's no personality there. It's as hollow as your shrieking harpy or "it's all about Morrison killing off his ex girlfriend."

    I'm sorry, but shrieking harpy is in your head.



    There's her daddy coming the closest anyone in the family does to shrieking. Coincidentally, it's a page of her going through, what, three, four different emotions? None of which are "shrieking harpy."

    Seriously, Joker pines for Batman more than Talia in that run and in comics in general. Shrieks more, too. And, never wins against Batman.
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  3. #48
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    322

    Default

    And, the next time we cover it, the only time in his run we actually see it, it goes very differently from what Batman said.
    GM himself has never acknowledged your described interpretation. Not once anywhere. Why is that????? One can go to any miscellaneous message board or youtube where the Talia Al Ghul character is referenced and see the comments of "She's a rapist". Him saying that isn't acknowledged anywhere else. Sorry but that's in your head.

    But it illustrates my point and GM admitted, he didn't fact check, he didn't read the storyline he referenced. He had a series of events he wanted to unfold and he's willing to shove round pegs into square holes to make certain storylines play out. That's how he writes IMO. He's a poor storyteller.

    Again, you can dislike that take. No one's going to say you can't, but to call that "robot" and say there's no personality there. It's as hollow as your shrieking harpy or "it's all about Morrison killing off his ex girlfriend."
    Actually he made the parallel himself in some Wizard Issue. Jean Grey came off robotic, inorganic, one-note and worst of all boring. And I'm not going to bother looking up all the numerous panels of Talia that fit my description.

    As far as Jean, if she's not showing emotion, why make jokes? Why cry? Why get frustrated? Why take someone's hand and say nice things to them? Why turn away from someone in disgust? Why hug someone? Why lie in bed not touching your husband but telekinetically picking up a condom along with the item you wanted? Why get furious at an extra-marital affair and then cure the woman sharing thoughts of sex with your husband and bring her back to life?

    He left Jean Grey having resurrected her, what, three times in six issues? Establishing thus that she can come back whenever a writer wants her to. And, having her save the world, not once in Here Comes Tomorrow, but at least on two separate occasions.
    You don't see any difference between the character development afforded to Cyclops and Emma Frost and the so called "work" done to the Jean Grey character? Wow. Everything is subjective. Your clearly a Grant Morrison Fan, I would love it if the man was never allowed to write so much as a "Thank You" card. And everything is still everything.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Nick Miller's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,828

    Default

    Wow, nothing you say about GM and his writing is true. Except that you don't like it.

    Hedge coke just schooled you and you basically put your fingers in your ears.

    GM has read every batman story. Thats known for certain

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member Kurtzberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    480

    Default

    Yeah, I'm not sure I get the shrieking harpy thing or one note character bit either, Talia in that run never loses herself to a frothing rage, and displays a range of complexity and emotion over multiple issues. She has a moment of weakness or regret when Damian dies when she buckles momentarily and sheds a tear. She has moments where she displays fear for her son's safety in the Resurrection of Ra's when it seems daddy will sacrifice her little boy. She has moments of jealously in regards to Jezebel Jet, and grief over Bruce's supposed death in RIP. Most of the time she is resolute and cold, but she has moments where lets her mask slip.
    The Eye of the Gorgon issue shows her backstory as complex and tragic, she's evil but she is also incredibly damaged. She's responsible for her poor choices but her options and outlook are also shaped by the people and landscape around her such as her crazy ass super-villain father, her lack of mother, the man she fell in love with who's a kind of crazy and damaged himself, etc.
    I have some quibbles as to Morrison's Talia, but they are minor, overall he did a good job building a great antagonist with depth and complexity for Bruce

  6. #51
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,400

    Default

    If I recall correctly Morrison confused Son of the Demon with a DC special from the late 70's, in that special Talia did "tie the knot" with a drugged Bruce without his consent and was about to sleep with him before he regained his composure. He made a mistake then by his own admission but later he decided to merge both stories together in his way, like him or not but you cant accuse Morrison of ignorance, even Burnham stated that he read every Talia story during an interview for INC and that's Morrison's collaborator.

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Weihai
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    If I recall correctly Morrison confused Son of the Demon with a DC special from the late 70's, in that special Talia did "tie the knot" with a drugged Bruce without his consent and was about to sleep with him before he regained his composure. He made a mistake then by his own admission but later he decided to merge both stories together in his way, like him or not but you cant accuse Morrison of ignorance, even Burnham stated that he read every Talia story during an interview for INC and that's Morrison's collaborator.
    He definitely screwed up, but since it only comes out in the comic in dialogue, and the later visual representation is different, I'm okeh with that. He did a lot with Batman making excuses and being hypocritical, otherwise, so it fit in. And, if I was Talia, that kind of accusation would piss me off, too.

    I think, as fans, it's easy for us to catch certain things about specific characters, but also much easier for us to respond to the threat of something potentially happening, whether it does or not.

    I just read something, the other day, somewhere, where someone said that Fantomex was congratulated for killing Darkstar in New X-Men, which, in the actual comic, just never happened. He congratulates himself, but everyone else responds in shock and disappointment, and the next issue opens with a very somber, serious funeral for her.

    I've done it myself. American Panther had me freaking out to the point I refused to read the storyline for, I think, over a year.

    (I'm not saying all criticisms are this, at all. Just that it's kind of easy to fall into.)
    Last edited by t hedge coke; 05-06-2016 at 12:08 AM.
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  8. #53
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    322

    Default

    Wow, nothing you say about GM and his writing is true. Except that you don't like it.

    Hedge coke just schooled you and you basically put your fingers in your ears.

    GM has read every batman story. Thats known for certain
    Schooled?!?!?! I must have missed that. I don't feel schooled. And I can think of one Batman story GM didn't read by his own admission. I know Grant Morrison fanatics er-I mean "Fans" get PO'ed when someone doesn't worship the man as they do but was the tone of your post really necessary? You know what, Please don't answer.

    Yeah, I'm not sure I get the shrieking harpy thing or one note character bit either, Talia in that run never loses herself to a frothing rage, and displays a range of complexity and emotion over multiple issues.
    I have to disagree. I didn't see complexity or nuance in his interpretation of the character. I can enjoy the "Eye of the Gorgon" issue but everything else. Not to my taste. Your fortunate in that you seem to have enjoyed his entire run. Must be nice.

  9. #54

    Default

    I sense tension in this thread

  10. #55
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    3,017

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beetlebum View Post
    Or from people who did pay attention in class, and who have read a lot of books with Talia in it, and who didn't like the way he characterized her.

    The people who say this about those who have legitimate grievances about the way Morrison portrayed Talia al Ghul apparently, didn't pay attention to history themselves.

    I know it's not a popular opinion to have on CBR, but really, Grant Morrision isn't infallible.

    Also, the argument isn't that Morrison 'turned her evil'. The argument is that he stripped her of her complexities and turned her into a one-note villain in order to further his story about how painful divorce is.
    Seems to be the only thing Morrison is good at.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Tupiaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    1,587

    Default

    My problem with talia is that she seems to always be as opposing her father or Bruce. I would rather see her being a charcter on her premits.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member protege's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Chandler az
    Posts
    4,824

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beetlebum View Post






    http://40.media.tumblr.com/2d16f9d7e...memo1_1280.png

    Proof that Talia can just be so darn likeable at times.
    I guess I need some background on how Damian was conceived; he looks a little young to be forming complete sentences.

  13. #58
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Still Bruce bedded her. Canon or not.

  14. #59
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    25

    Default

    Talia... hmmm she loves Bruce, yes. Bruce was in love with her, yes. But Talia's love is much more than Bruce's to her, so it's not balance (and in my personal opinion, Bruce's was not that emotionally deep).
    Bruce bedded her, yes. But she's not the only one.. Bruce also bedded (and still beds) other women.
    Talia has a son (Damian) with Bruce, yes. But that's it, because Bruce doesn't love Talia anymore.
    Last edited by zebracross; 06-01-2016 at 10:23 PM.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,748

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zebracross View Post
    Talia... hmmm she loves Bruce, yes. Bruce was in love with her, yes. But Talia's love is much more than Bruce's to her, so it's not balance (and in my personal opinion, Bruce's was not that emotionally deep).
    Bruce bedded her, yes. But she's not the only one.. Bruce also bedded (and still beds) other women.
    Talia has a son (Damian) with Bruce, yes. But that's it, because Bruce doesn't love Talia anymore.
    Agreed.

    I never saw much of an emotional attachment to Talia from Bruce. She was somewhere between a moment of weakness and a one night stand.

    Seeing all this talk about trying to work the story like a divorced family is just... ughhh...

    Batman/Catwoman has more in common with that then Talia ever did.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •