Rogue and Storm were like sisters on the Fox X-Men show. Why is it different in the 616?

[Confuzzled]

It was a fair punishment. Justice served. That's why I don't appreciate Kamala Khan being written to give Rogue a bloody lip over what happened to Carol. I understand she's Marvel's little darling but that was uncalled for and quite frankly impossible unless she possessed strength equal to Rogue. What a joke that was.

I thought she had more strength than a non-Tank powered Rogue?

[ChronoRogue]

Hello there, it's been a LONG time! (Comixfan!)

In regards to the scene in Uncanny X-men #244, Rogue is having a temper tantrum/meltdown in regards to Carol taking control. She's throwing her bed and other pieces of furniture through the wall, not realizing that the objects were endangering her teammates. Once she calms down and the team gathers their bearings to assess the situation, Rogue runs up to Betsy and tells her that she can "wipe Danvers from my head!". Betsy says, "doubtful, given the unique nature of Carol's own psyche". I can hardly read your thoughts, Rogue, much less erase them. Even if it were possible, it would not be right.

Betsy wasn't being a snob, her morals just differed from Rogue's regarding her situation with Carol. Even if Betsy didn't know Carol that well, she was still a person who's psyche was trapped in the body of another. I'm sure Betsy felt it would be akin to committing murder.

This outburst was just the culmination of Rogue's feelings and thus the meltdown. She'd been getting comments from teammates about Carol before this and thus never truly felt accepted by them, which she mentions.

Rogue then began her accusations about everyone choosing Carol over her and that they wished she was the one that they'd get rid of. That's when Storm grabbed her and told her to stop and that it was her decision to attack Carol. It was an accident, but Storm goes on to say that it's fair punishment for what she's going through. That last bit was tough for Rogue to hear. On one hand, I believe that Carol shouldn't have been wiped from Rogue's mind, but I also think that Storm could've left out the part about Rogue's situation being a fair punishment.

Which she's right about, that sort of was the impression they were giving off lol. It's one thing to distrust a teammate because you fought against them, but by that time Rogue had proved herself with Wolverine and sacrificed her own life to save a teammate. Magneto or Emma have never done that. The negativity should've gone down, but it didn't. She ended up needing to prove herself multiple times to the team.

Also I don't get Psylocke's reservations on mind-wiping the psychic ghost from Rogue's mind. It wasn't really Carol. Her bitterness and some memories made manifest, perhaps, but not the real thing considering she turns up later on with the Star Jammers.

Another thing to note is the entity ended becoming corrupted and tried to outright kill Rogue as soon as she managed to get out of her body, might've succeeded too if Magneto hadn't helped her. It was a safety risk to let something like that affect a teammate.

I know people who've made one dumb decision while young and have spent years making up for it, but that bad choice still affects them. I guess this is where we get into those morally gray areas!

It's not as simple as her being young and dumb, it was more like she indoctrinated by Mystique. She was what, 10 years old when she got adopted? Mystique gave her a safe place to stay and she molded her to be her little terrorist daughter. Rogue wanted a family and affection, Mystique and Destiny gave her that.

In return, it seems like Rogue wanted to make her mother proud and participated in the family business. She acted like a bully and harassed multiple heroes (and even seemed to enjoy it a bit) but up until what she did to Carol, I don't think she had ever seriously hurt anyone apart from Cody. It took a warning from Destiny that Ms Marvel would put Mystique in grave danger that drove Rogue to attempt murder and she ended having to run to her mother's enemy to seek help from the consequences.

So yeah, I don't know how much 'choice' she had with how she was raised.

I think it was more of CC trying to show the morals of the team. As for past Betsy vs. current Betsy? Hmmm, maybe. Betsy did kill Kaptain Briton when he tried to rape her way back in the days before she became Psylocke. Though she snapped so it'd be considered self-defense. She wanted Brian to kill Slaymaster when they fought after he killed almost everyone she worked closely with (and were her friends) during her S.T.R.I.K.E. days. That would be more of a revenge killing. When she joined the X-men, she suggested killing Havok.

So I guess the difference now is that since those early days, Betsy has killed without even trying, which her past self would see that as a problem lol.

Yes, which is messed up considering she suggests murdering a teammate and then berates Rogue for the trying to protect her family? Not to mention Wolverine stabbing Rachel to stop her from killing Selene...

Not CC's best plot points.

[DDD]

Rogue got off easy. Throwing an innocent person off a bridge is a murder attempt. I know we all got to know and like her, and we all hate Carol, but Rogue still committed heinous, violent crimes and never did time.

[DDD]

Psylocke read Havok's mind and how mutants stood for everything he hates. She got a little carried away in her speech. Or she could have been kidding.

You guys have any more trouble interpreting CC, I'll be back in a flash.

[Rogue Star]

Rogue got off easy. Throwing an innocent person off a bridge is a murder attempt. I know we all got to know and like her, and we all hate Carol, but Rogue still committed heinous, violent crimes and never did time.

Rogue never got away with anything, unless you never read Claremont's run. She had a long, hard road to walk on the path to atonement. Wouldn't be surprised if you were biased to toward Carol.

[ExodusCloak]

Rogue never got away with anything, unless you never read Claremont's run. She had a long, hard road to walk on the path to atonement. Wouldn't be surprised if you were biased to toward Carol.

No one on this board is bias towards Carol. But DDM is right. The reason Rogue got off easily is because she was disabled and they were two different people. Rogues actions towards Angel, Dazzler and Lois London were despicable. Yet people accepted her quite quickly.

[Agent Z]

Rogue never got away with anything, unless you never read Claremont's run. She had a long, hard road to walk on the path to atonement. Wouldn't be surprised if you were biased to toward Carol.

I think DDD means is that Rogue was never imprisoned for her crimes which seems like getting off easy.

[mikeb]

Hello there, it's been a LONG time! (Comixfan!)

In regards to the scene in Uncanny X-men #244, Rogue is having a temper tantrum/meltdown in regards to Carol taking control. She's throwing her bed and other pieces of furniture through the wall, not realizing that the objects were endangering her teammates. Once she calms down and the team gathers their bearings to assess the situation, Rogue runs up to Betsy and tells her that she can "wipe Danvers from my head!". Betsy says, "doubtful, given the unique nature of Carol's own psyche". I can hardly read your thoughts, Rogue, much less erase them. Even if it were possible, it would not be right.

Betsy wasn't being a snob, her morals just differed from Rogue's regarding her situation with Carol. Even if Betsy didn't know Carol that well, she was still a person who's psyche was trapped in the body of another. I'm sure Betsy felt it would be akin to committing murder.

Rogue then began her accusations about everyone choosing Carol over her and that they wished she was the one that they'd get rid of. That's when Storm grabbed her and told her to stop and that it was her decision to attack Carol. It was an accident, but Storm goes on to say that it's fair punishment for what she's going through. That last bit was tough for Rogue to hear. On one hand, I believe that Carol shouldn't have been wiped from Rogue's mind, but I also think that Storm could've left out the part about Rogue's situation being a fair punishment.

I know people who've made one dumb decision while young and have spent years making up for it, but that bad choice still affects them. I guess this is where we get into those morally gray areas!

Thing is though, "Carol" was the one who provoked Rogue's temper tantrum in the first place. Rogue was pretty emotionally messed up after being assaulted by the Genoshen guards. Carol tried to make her talk about it, Rogue wouldn't (which I very much understand, given the quagmire of emotions she must of been feeling.) so Carol forced a take over. To add insult to injury, Carol desided to redecurate Rogue's living area without even telling her.
The strange thing to me, is after Rogue is reunited with the X-men at Miur Island after she gets out of the Siege Perilous, no one asks her to talk to Carol or what happened to Carol. I find that strange, given how much this was focused on before Rogue went into the Siege.

[DDD]

I don't have to know who an innocent victim is when they did Rogue no harm. Justice is not a popularity contest. Rogue had no reason to harass all those people. It's not like she was rude to them. She was actively trying to kill them. Didn't get any sense of morality until she got stuck with Carol. It's nothing like Jean broilling the D'Bari.

[Drey]

This outburst was just the culmination of Rogue's feelings and thus the meltdown. She'd been getting comments from teammates about Carol before this and thus never truly felt accepted by them, which she mentions.

Ok, during this period there is Dazzler, who had past history with Rogue which didn't make it easy. The dynamic between them is understandable.

Rogue's relationship with Betsy started out with Rogue not trusting her, since she was pretty much just living in the mansion and mostly hung out with the New Mutants at the time. Understandable too. With Sinister and the Marauders being a huge deal at the time, trust couldn't be handed out freely. I feel that Betsy and Rogue got along fine for the most part. There was the incident of Betsy psi-blasting the crap outta her because Rogue wouldn't let her go after Betsy surrendered during a training exercise. I'm sure that moment for Betsy brought some stuff to the surface (Kaptain Briton) at that point.

Rogue got along fine with Longshot, Wolverine, and Colossus. Longshot trusted everyone, Wolverine trusted Rogue, even though he was close with Carol. Colossus was like a brother to everyone.

Havok was a little different. He was part of the group, but he didn't fully trust anyone for quite a while, especially Betsy.

I believe that Storm trusted Rogue with her life, but she just didn't sugarcoat things, especially when it came to the situation with Carol.

Which she's right about, that sort of was the impression they were giving off lol. It's one thing to distrust a teammate because you fought against them, but by that time Rogue had proved herself with Wolverine and sacrificed her own life to save a teammate. Magneto or Emma have never done that. The negativity should've gone down, but it didn't. She ended up needing to prove herself multiple times to the team.

Both Magneto and Emma were still not fully accepted by every person affiliated with the X-men. Charles and Kitty were definitely not having any of the tea they were serving lol.

Also I don't get Psylocke's reservations on mind-wiping the psychic ghost from Rogue's mind. It wasn't really Carol. Her bitterness and some memories made manifest, perhaps, but not the real thing considering she turns up later on with the Star Jammers.

It was Carol (pre-X-men version). All of her thoughts, emotions, memories, & experiences were now inside Rogue's body. Sure, Carol's physical body was walking around too, but remember, even though it took Charles to dig deep and get the memories back for her, she had no emotional connection to them because she was, in effect, no longer the same Carol she was before Rogue absorbed her mind.

A telepath would even consider a psychic "ghost" as you call it to be real. If things like psychic sex or thinking adulterous thoughts are considered to be real, then I think they'd consider the original mind of Carol as a real entity.

Another thing to note is the entity ended becoming corrupted and tried to outright kill Rogue as soon as she managed to get out of her body, might've succeeded too if Magneto hadn't helped her. It was a safety risk to let something like that affect a teammate.

Before this happened, Storm did tell Carol that she and Rogue must come to an understanding and strike a balance. Also, once Carol was free of Rogue, she tried to talk to Rogue, but all Rogue did was assume the worst and run away, using Gateway's power to teleport away which caused Carol to end up in the clutches of The Shadow King to be psychically tortured until he could corrupt her.

It's not as simple as her being young and dumb, it was more like she indoctrinated by Mystique. She was what, 10 years old when she got adopted? Mystique gave her a safe place to stay and she molded her to be her little terrorist daughter. Rogue wanted a family and affection, Mystique and Destiny gave her that.

In return, it seems like Rogue wanted to make her mother proud and participated in the family business. She acted like a bully and harassed multiple heroes (and even seemed to enjoy it a bit) but up until what she did to Carol, I don't think she had ever seriously hurt anyone apart from Cody. It took a warning from Destiny that Ms Marvel would put Mystique in grave danger that drove Rogue to attempt murder and she ended having to run to her mother's enemy to seek help from the consequences.

So yeah, I don't know how much 'choice' she had with how she was raised.

I understand where you're coming from and I don't think there's one clear cut answer. On one hand I kinda agree with this. BUT!! There are characters out there who were also raised by villains and made the choice early on not to follow in the same footsteps. Pretty much like life. There are those that fall into the same patterns on how they were raised, while others break the mold.

Yes, which is messed up considering she suggests murdering a teammate and then berates Rogue for the trying to protect her family? Not to mention Wolverine stabbing Rachel to stop her from killing Selene...

Not CC's best plot points.

Weeelll...Betsy was also trying to protect the X-men. They had to keep everything so tight knit. Sabretooth, Malice, The Marauders, etc. ruined the trust between the team. Betsy had already edited Havok's memories to keep him unaware of the X-men's hideout, but he found them again. Betsy didn't know Havok at the time either so it may have been easy for her to suggest. The question is, could she really go through with it?

As for what Wolverine did to Rachel, I hate to get on a tirade because that incident never set well with me. I will bite my lip and stay silent lol.

Rogue got off easy. Throwing an innocent person off a bridge is a murder attempt. I know we all got to know and like her, and we all hate Carol, but Rogue still committed heinous, violent crimes and never did time.

I like Carol.

Psylocke read Havok's mind and how mutants stood for everything he hates. She got a little carried away in her speech. Or she could have been kidding.

You guys have any more trouble interpreting CC, I'll be back in a flash.

Yes, Betsy might've been overcompensating to fit in. She might've wanted to show how hardcore she could be to Storm, Wolverine, and Magneto. She wanted to prove herself so bad during those early days. But then again, Betsy still had a darkness in her and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she actually meant it.

Thing is though, "Carol" was the one who provoked Rogue's temper tantrum in the first place. Rogue was pretty emotionally messed up after being assaulted by the Genoshen guards. Carol tried to make her talk about it, Rogue wouldn't (which I very much understand, given the quagmire of emotions she must of been feeling.) so Carol forced a take over. To add insult to injury, Carol desided to redecurate Rogue's living area without even telling her.
The strange thing to me, is after Rogue is reunited with the X-men at Miur Island after she gets out of the Siege Perilous, no one asks her to talk to Carol or what happened to Carol. I find that strange, given how much this was focused on before Rogue went into the Siege.

True. Both Storm and Carol herself felt she shouldn't have done what she did. That's when Storm says that the two must strike a balance. I can understand why Rogue withdrew into herself after the Genosha incident. It affected her greatly. Also, I understand why Carol forced a takeover. The redecorating was a bitch move though lol.

I feel that in an ideal time, they should have sought out some help for Rogue and Carol both. But, you know how things go, they're always being attacked by one person or another.

I also find it strange that no one mentioned Carol after Muir Island either. Maybe they noticed, but didn't want to push the subject? Like when Betsy was reunited with Brian after being abducted by Mojo and Spiral and all of a sudden wasn't blind anymore? But that's probably me just making up a rational explanation.

I'm a fan of both Rogue and Carol. Rogue was my favorite as a kid in the 90s cartoon before I even began picking up comics. Carol was almost instantly my favorite Avenger when I was new to comics. It's so hard at times to try not to sound biased towards either one.

[DDD]

They did not inquire about "Carol" because she did not exist. It was Rogue confused by the fusion with her. The actual Carol did not do anything to her as she was mostly wiped clean by Rogue's attack on her.

Let's not overlook the good it did Rogue:

Rogue benefited a lot from the permanent absorption. It got her started on the right path to a brand new life straight into Gambit's icky stubble. She also gained 3 wonderful powers which she took away from Carol.

Carol lost her memories and powers forever to Rogue. (back then)

Rogue still enjoyed liberty. Sure, she took a lot of lumps for the team in "atonement" but that sort of corporal punishment was not really necessary. She was still free as a bird. She got free room and board with an education and counselling from Professor X.

Storm and Wolverine allowing her to take their powers was very generous of them back then. Storm risked her own safety for her big time at least twice in that story.

Psylocke did talk to "Carol" in Rogue's defense after 244. It's not like they could tell who was making the decisions for her.

I think the punishment Rogue got from Carol's memories was fair. It made her into a better person. Better than Carol and teenage Rogue both.

[ChronoRogue]

Ok, during this period there is Dazzler, who had past history with Rogue which didn't make it easy. The dynamic between them is understandable.

Rogue's relationship with Betsy started out with Rogue not trusting her, since she was pretty much just living in the mansion and mostly hung out with the New Mutants at the time. Understandable too. With Sinister and the Marauders being a huge deal at the time, trust couldn't be handed out freely. I feel that Betsy and Rogue got along fine for the most part. There was the incident of Betsy psi-blasting the crap outta her because Rogue wouldn't let her go after Betsy surrendered during a training exercise. I'm sure that moment for Betsy brought some stuff to the surface (Kaptain Briton) at that point.

Rogue got along fine with Longshot, Wolverine, and Colossus. Longshot trusted everyone, Wolverine trusted Rogue, even though he was close with Carol. Colossus was like a brother to everyone.

Havok was a little different. He was part of the group, but he didn't fully trust anyone for quite a while, especially Betsy.

I believe that Storm trusted Rogue with her life, but she just didn't sugarcoat things, especially when it came to the situation with Carol.

Yeah, Rogue didn't catch much drama from the guys. It was specifically the girls who usually brought up Carol. Again, bar Dazzler, it wasn't really appropriate from them.

Both Magneto and Emma were still not fully accepted by every person affiliated with the X-men. Charles and Kitty were definitely not having any of the tea they were serving lol.

But the outbursts were less, was my point compared to Rogue. Though iirc Wolverine did regularly threaten Magneto at least...

It was Carol (pre-X-men version). All of her thoughts, emotions, memories, & experiences were now inside Rogue's body. Sure, Carol's physical body was walking around too, but remember, even though it took Charles to dig deep and get the memories back for her, she had no emotional connection to them because she was, in effect, no longer the same Carol she was before Rogue absorbed her mind.

A telepath would even consider a psychic "ghost" as you call it to be real. If things like psychic sex or thinking adulterous thoughts are considered to be real, then I think they'd consider the original mind of Carol as a real entity.

It was a copy of Carol's memories and experiences. Rogue doesn't steal abilities and memories so much as copy them. There's a negation aspect of her power as well. This is how Rogue was able to painlessly copy powers during Legacy and people were still able to defend themselves using their powers.

Carol's problem I think was more psychological than anything Rogue did. It was shocking, yes, but I think a factor of other things going wrong in Carol's life then just Rogue's attack.

Except those psychic ghosts regularly get cleansed from Rogue so she can stay sane. Are those considered massacres if you consider them real? I don't think so. Not to mention Charles regularly helped Rogue suppress them in her mind. I think the 'ghosts' are just aspects of Rogue's mutation and more mental catalogs of everyone's she's absorbed. It's what allowed her to access everyone's powers during X-Treme.

Before this happened, Storm did tell Carol that she and Rogue must come to an understanding and strike a balance. Also, once Carol was free of Rogue, she tried to talk to Rogue, but all Rogue did was assume the worst and run away, using Gateway's power to teleport away which caused Carol to end up in the clutches of The Shadow King to be psychically tortured until he could corrupt her.

I don't think Storm really understood Rogue's situation very well lol. Xavier had a different perspective on it, given his telepathy.

Rogue was scared of her, but Rogue had also been interacting with it the entire time in her mind. It helped Rogue because they shared the same body, but the entity also had designs to take control. She had no problem staying in Rogue's body for as long as she could. So of course she didn't trust it. Shadow King did help in making it evil, but it wasn't really a stable aspect of Rogue's mind. None of the ghosts usually are, since the absorptions tend to be unwilling.

I understand where you're coming from and I don't think there's one clear cut answer. On one hand I kinda agree with this. BUT!! There are characters out there who were also raised by villains and made the choice early on not to follow in the same footsteps. Pretty much like life. There are those that fall into the same patterns on how they were raised, while others break the mold.

Yes, if you want to compare her situation to say, X-23 who she left her handlers as soon as possible.

The difference is that Rogue didn't view Mystique as evil. They did thing that broke the law and hurt people, but Mystique never forced her to do anything truly 'bad'. Mystique was a freedom fighter to Rogue, as far as she knew, she was fighting for family and the good of mutant kind. It wasn't until Carol that she began questioning if Mystique's way was really right. The most effective versions of indoctrination convince people what they are doing is necessary and for the good of everyone.

Weeelll...Betsy was also trying to protect the X-men. They had to keep everything so tight knit. Sabretooth, Malice, The Marauders, etc. ruined the trust between the team. Betsy had already edited Havok's memories to keep him unaware of the X-men's hideout, but he found them again. Betsy didn't know Havok at the time either so it may have been easy for her to suggest. The question is, could she really go through with it?

As for what Wolverine did to Rachel, I hate to get on a tirade because that incident never set well with me. I will bite my lip and stay silent lol.

My point is that it's hypocritical lol. Similar goal and reasons, different situation.

But yes, bad CC!

[mikeb]

You got what you wanted! You're out of my head, with a physical body again, you're free! You an' me, we're QUITS! That's what Rogue told "Carol" as she was fleeing in UXM#269. (When I was a kid in the 1970's, there was a TV show on friday nights called the Odd Couple, with Tony Randel and Jack Klugman. I remember the last eposide broadcast in 1975.(I was about 10! :-p) Felix gets back with his wife and is moving out of Oscar's apartment. As Felix leaves and the door closes behind him, Oscar kicks up his feet and yells "Yipee" and it's freeze framed right there to end the episode. THAT'S how I think Rogue felt to finally be rid of Carol in her head!)

[Drey]

DDD- When you put it that way it sounds like it's almost worth the dual personality situation lol.

Chrono- Unfortunately, and I hate to say this, but many of the X-men (as well as other Marvel heroes) have been known to be hypocritical. Wolverine and his situation with Rachel, for one. More recently, Wolverine's reaction to Scott because he killed The Professor. It didn't even matter to him that Cyclops was a Dark Phoenix when he did it, but ok yeah I won't get into all that lol.

Mikeb- I've heard of the show, but never watched.

[DDD]

Dual persona was fun. Rogue turned to cruds the moment CC left. I still get sadistic pleasure rerrading UXM182.