The "Superman wasn't fully formed until a bunch of other writers had their say" argument.

[The World]

If this statement is to believed that Superman wasn't really "real" when Siegel and Shuster wrote out their stories but rather didn't become real until a number of other writers/artist got their say then how do we know he's fully formed yet? For that matter who even is the "fully formed Superman" What's his background, powers, and characterization?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I'd argue that it's up to people's tastes, from a certain POV, or the continuity/ universe we're talking about, from another.

Some would say that pre-Flashpoint Superman was "fully-formed", whereas others will say the pre-COIE one was the Superman version that was fully-Formed, with a final story and all.

[phantom1592]

I say look at his popularity level. There's a distinct bell curve where Superman hit his peak popularity. It wasn't under Siegel... it wasn't before the radio program that gave him flight and kryptonite... and it certainly isn't now where writers are constantly trying to do anything they can to make people interested in him. Depower, repower, costume change, dark and gritty...

Looking at his popularity in late silver age through Death of Superman is where I truly believe he hit his peak. I don't think he (or any superhero) will reach that level again... Now people are more ashamed of superheroes and try to make them more... realistic, instead of embracing what made them household names world wide.

[Jim Kelly]

Because of his failing eyesight, Joe Shuster had to beg off doing full artwork on the Superman feature fairly early on. However, Joe established his studio in Cleveland where many of the Superman artists worked for him (just not Jack Burnley or Fred Ray) and Joe supervised the work and drew things like Superman heads.

Jerry Siegel was virtually the only writer on both the comic books and the newspaper feature for the first few years. And even after other writers like Don Cameron and Alvin Schwartz began to add scripts for the ever greater demand that needed to be filled, it was only when Jerry went away to do his military service that his output decreased signiificantly.

It was during those early years--a good five year period--that Superman became such a pop sensation. Superman went from being a feature in a best selling comic magazine to having his own comic book, being featured at the New York World's Fair, having his own popular syndicated newspaper strip and Sundays, starring on his own radio show, having a series of cartoons and generally launching a whole number of merchandise tie-ins.

The success of Superman was so immediate and profound that it caught the publishers unawares, yet as soon as they realized they were onto a goldmine they moved quickly to secure their rights to that goldmine--contracting their rights to the character from Siegel and Shuster, launching lawsuits against any other company that dared to publish something similar, registering Superman with the U.S. patent office.

And during that period, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster were minor celebrities. Their credit appeared on every story in the comic strips and the comic books. All across the United States, they were known as the creators of Superman.

[L.R Johansson]

Because of his failing eyesight, Joe Shuster had to beg off doing full artwork on the Superman feature fairly early on. However, Joe established his studio in Cleveland where many of the Superman artists worked for him (just not Jack Burnley or Fred Ray) and Joe supervised the work and drew things like Superman heads.

Jerry Siegel was virtually the only writer on both the comic books and the newspaper feature for the first few years. And even after other writers like Don Cameron and Alvin Schwartz began to add scripts for the ever greater demand that needed to be filled, it was only when Jerry went away to do his military service that his output decreased signiificantly.

It was during those early years--a good five year period--that Superman became such a pop sensation. Superman went from being a feature in a best selling comic magazine to having his own comic book, being featured at the New York World's Fair, having his own popular syndicated newspaper strip and Sundays, starring on his own radio show, having a series of cartoons and generally launching a whole number of merchandise tie-ins.

The success of Superman was so immediate and profound that it caught the publishers unawares, yet as soon as they realized they were onto a goldmine they moved quickly to secure their rights to that goldmine--contracting their rights to the character from Siegel and Shuster, launching lawsuits against any other company that dared to publish something similar, registering Superman with the U.S. patent office.

And during that period, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster were minor celebrities. Their credit appeared on every story in the comic strips and the comic books. All across the United States, they were known as the creators of Superman.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that what you're really saying is that the "Superman wasn't fully formed until a bunch of other writers had their say" argument is kind of... bull-****?

Btw, I must say that I was unaware that Jerry Siegel was still the main writer for such a long period of time - nearly five years, eh? That means, one should probably look at every story published in those first four years, newspaper-daily and all, as the DEFINING Superman, now shouldn't one? = )

This does change my view on the early Superman-stories, as I've often felt that pretty much only the first two years or so of Superman could be regarded as "pure" in one sense or another - as the actual vision of the creators.

I.e those are the adventures of Earth-2 Superman, KAL-*L* baaaybee! ^^

[bat39]

Its a totally subjective thing, honestly.

IMO, I think that the conventional perception of Superman today is, to some extent rooted in the Silver Age/Bronze Age version of the character, which in its earliest form took shape during the 1950's. In fact, the first fully developed version of the Superman mythos as we know it today emerged by 1960 - we had all the powers, Krypton and its mythos, Kryptonite, Lex Luthor with his full name, Supergirl, the Fortress, Krypto, General Zod, Brainiac etc. The Modern Age reboots, the New 52, the movie versions (all of them), the animated series have ALL basically been reinventions of what the Superman mythos became by the dawn of the Silver Age.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

I.e those are the adventures of Earth-2 Superman, KAL-*L* baaaybee! ^^

I've always thought of everything after that up through Action #241 or thereabouts as Earth-Two, and everything prior as a different, more primal version of the character.

Anyway, the cultural image of him formed relatively independently of those stories, but while crucial stuff has been added on over time, the most important aspects of his character were there in the beginning, and could no more be rejected than you could reject your own childhood as forming the base of who you are.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think Siegel and Shuster changed the charcter as they wrote it and they would have continued to as well. The Superman in Action Comics one grows and changes under their own hands. Would Mxyzptlk fit in the first Superman comic? They started playing with the idea. The Fleisher cartoons, the radio show, the serials, it sounds like many hands shared ideas about Superman once the idea came out. I don't think Siegel and Shuster would write the character the same at 28 as they did at 20, editorial influence or not. I think they loved Sci Fi too much to not keep moving the character in different directions.

[Jim Kelly]

Well, in 1942, if you went up to a little kid sitting on the curb, reading ACTION COMICS, and said to him, "Y'know, kid, that Superman you're reading isn't fully formed"--he'd probably kick you in the shins and call you a dirty Ratzi.

Here is Jerry Siegel's comic book credits (that we know of) according to Mike's Amazing World. You can see how productive he was through 1943 (and that's not counting a lot of work on the comic strips). His output markedly decreases in '44, '45, '46 (when he was doing his duty for his country), but it goes up again in '47 just before he gets canned.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Well, in 1942, if you went up to a little kid sitting on the curb, reading ACTION COMICS, and said to him, "Y'know, kid, that Superman you're reading isn't fully formed"--he'd probably kick you in the shins and call you a dirty Ratzi.

Here is Jerry Siegel's comic book credits (that we know of) according to Mike's Amazing World. You can see how productive he was through 1943 (and that's not counting a lot of work on the comic strips). His output markedly decreases in '44, '45, '46 (when he was doing his duty for his country), but it goes up again in '47 just before he gets canned.

I'd deserve it too, just like anyone suggesting to Jerry Siegel's he'd never have a great idea about Superman after 1939.

[manofsteel1979]

While you can't ignore the contributions of those that came after them, the core of what Superman is to this day has just evolved from Siegel and Shuster created. He of course didn't come fully formed right out of the gate of ACTION #1,but by the time S&S left the first time, Superman was definitely a fully formed and fleshed out character with an imutable base on which pretty much every version of the character since. Yes there are fine details that are changed from version to version, but at his core, Superman has remained pretty much the character they created.