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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I think he sees the bigger picture (most incarnations) mostly on a sociological level. He goes out there and does his part with what he can do in hopes that the rest of us pitch in literally any little way we can. I'd imagine that he'd like all of our combined small kindnesses to make the big dents in the more complex issues somewhere down the line. I don't think he'll ever be able to save this planet alone, just like his celestial father before him. But I've learned that tomorrow always starts today for Clark Kent.
    That's what Ive been trying to say. Once again I think we're at basically the same conclusion but got there from different directions. Sorry, with finals and everything else my brain words have been fuzzy and Im not being very clear on things. You know how I am man.

    I do think Superman, not in every incarnation but in enough to "count" as a viable option, does keep an eye on the big picture and has plans to set certain things in motion at certain times, depending on the rate of human evolution (I adore the idea of him trying, and failing, to cure cancer. For some reason that attempt and failure resonate with me) But I take a heavy influence from Morrison and he toys with this concept more than most. But generally, yeah he's a sociologist more than a Stark style futurist, and his influence on history will be more indirect than direct; through inspiring others. I think what Clark wants is to inspire a world of John Henry Irons'; everyone doing what they can to make their world slightly better, and if most people get behind that, then it changes the world in the way Superman wants to see.

    I do think he's a better futurist than Stark though, not because he's a better inventor or anything, but because Stark is such a mess of a person he ends up doing serious damage when his plans blow up in his face. Stark's story seems like the tale of a man trying to save the world from himself.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son View Post
    Though it seems like even in a Superman-only world, eventually other heroes would appear. If there are superpowered villains such as Parasite and Bizarro, it stands to reason that some of the people to develop abilities wouldn't always go bad.

    I'm a fan of the idea that Superman directly or indirectly caused other DC universe heroes and villains to come into existence. Like, what if there was kryptonite in Barry Allen's forensic lab when the lightning struck, and it was that exotic, alien substance that served as the catalyst for his transformation? Not that it has to be kryptonite, but really any alien substance that only exist on Earth because of Superman and the destruction of Krypton.

    This idea runs into a few kinks when it comes to characters like Wonder Woman and Aquaman who come from mythical civilizations on Earth which have been around for thousands of years and are inhabited by super-beings. Superman can't be responsible for their powers because they are either themselves thousands of years old or they're descended from a race of super-beings that have been around for millennia.

    I know there's a Man of Steel prequel comic that hints at Kara being an ancestor to characters like WW and Aquaman due to being stranded on Earth 10,000 years ago, that our mythological characters and gods were actually aliens with superpowers or descendants of them, not unlike the MCU interpretation of Asgardians who are actually aliens mistaken by ancient humans for gods. I haven't seen Batman v Superman yet(for shame, I know), but I remember from one of the trailers that Lex references this idea and maybe Wonder Woman and Aquaman have been revealed to be descendants of Kryptonians.
    This looks like a very cool idea. I really like that possible twist on Barry Allen's origin. Yeah, the MOS prequel comic kinda hints at that, but by the time MOS was released, there wasn't anything definitive on that. I even remember Goyer saying that open stasis cabin Clark found when exploring the scout ship was going to be something to explore in MOS2. Anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Im fine either way. Superman works alone or as part of a shared universe. Though I do heavily favor the idea that he was the first superhero if he's part of a larger world. Its not an absolute must-have, but it doesnt feel right otherwise to me.

    I think the real kink in the franchise is that Superman's not allowed to actually change the world.

    It became real apparent in the clutter-earth of post-Crisis, and I found myself wondering why Ted Knight never adapted his cosmic energy technology and provided clean energy to the world. Sure, there's always the "fear of weaponization" excuse, but after seventy years you'd think the guy would have found a way to work around that. Stuff like that started creeping into my perception of the DCU and I did not care for the results, which basically make heroes look useless to the long-term gain of humanity. You could use super villains as a counterbalance and say that they're the ones who prevent the sort of change heroes would introduce, but it's rarely treated that way; indeed, villains often end up looking more progressive (flawed progressiveness certainly, but at least they're trying to improve the status quo in their own twisted evil way rather than just maintaining course)

    With Superman, he's a guy who is very much actively trying to direct the course of history (indirectly of course, he's no tyrant!) but because the main continuity isnt allowed to evolve beyond the real world outside of a handful of exceptions that never reach the general public (super science, magic, etc) it makes Clark look inefficient.
    I agree. Superman should be the first, but I don't know how to reconcile that with the scenario depicting him appearing in the modern day world. I mean, I could easily say that news of his appearance were the reason that finally made Diana decide to go into man's world. But with Batgod is another thing.

    And what you said about Superman's (and superheroes in general) efforts to advance humanity is an interesting topic. And yeah, I can see the villains being the proverbial stone in the shoe. But I also see humans themselves being an obstacle: mistrust, pride, fear, paranoia, hatred...

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    One idea would be to remove Krypton from the recent past. Jor-El in the 1978 movie states that he will have been dead for millennia by the time Clark is seeing the hologram. There was an Elseworlds that had Kal's rocket discovered in the 30th century rather than the 20th. So imagine Krypton exploded say 10.000 years ago and Kal-El's rocket is actually a late arrival. Perhaps Themiscyra was a non-Green-K chunk of the planet. Maybe samples of Kryptonain DNA were used as a template for Atlanteans to enablwe them to survve the ocean depths. maybe Clark himself gives off either radiation or skin flakes or something that is the basis for the meta-gene.
    This is cool. I'm kinda doing that with my Superman origin, but since Krypton was so far away from Earth, it's unlikely that any Kryptonite could ever reach it. Instead, I gave Kryptonite a completely different origin: a weapon created by Kryptonians to subdue rogue/ evil members of their society.

    As for the radiation, I was thinking about giving Kal some sort of bio electric field that interferes with electronic devices. And to prevent that from happening (whenever he wants to) he created a little device that manipulates/ transforms the waves so he can approach electronics with no issue. And THAT's the reason why NO ONE (not even Jimmy Olsen) has been able to get a close-up pic of Superman. Not only he can avoid the cameras, but when close enough they simply won't work.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Dude, you practically wrote a fanfic here! Interesting stuff, well thought. Seems you got all the basics covered. I like that twist on the Clark-Lex relationship, and the new characters in Smallville. Just out of curiosity: why the change in the Kent family?
    It is sort of a long percolating fan-fic that started from a Buffy the Vampire episode. I was watching an episode early on with Faith and Buffy's mom interacting. It dawned on me that the same way she seemed to see Faith as someone to take Buffy's place and keep her daughter safe could be applied to how the Kents saw Mon-El. "Look, Clark, we agree that using your powers to help out is a noble thing and we don't want you to necessarily stop. But now that your big brother is here maybe he can handle the alien invaders or Lex Luthor while you concentrate on school work and limit yourself to things closer to home".

    That briefly ignited the idea for a sort of refocused Smallville fan-fic TV series where I tried to plot out Clark's life from about 13 yrs old through college at 22-24 stories a year/season leading to a Superman series with JLA spinoffs. And even though that idea didn't hold my interest long enough to actually write more than a few outlines, I still keep adding little details in my head on-and off. It's my personal DCU that I play with/in when I get bored.

    The change in the Kents is a little quirky theory of mine. In my head canon the Pre-Crisis John Kent on Earth-2 wasn't a counterpart of the Earth-1 Jonathan Kent. Instead the Earth-1 John Kent and his wife Mary die childless (since the rocket didn't land in their lifetime like it did on Earth Two) and their farm is passed on to John's relative Jonathan (and his wife Martha). So the Earth-2 Jonathan would have been Earth-2 Superman's contemporary. So my Superman would be yet one generation removed from Earth-1 and be adopted by someone who would have been the Silver-Age or Byrne Superman's contemporary. So Jake Kent would remember the classic Ma and Pa Kent as older relatives that influenced him.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Ideas on the supporting cast.

    Lois Lane: Much as I dislike the antagonistic General Sam Lane idea, it might work for me ... or not. My take on Lois is that she is very anti-authoritarian. If her dad was a general then Lois is not on cordial terms with him at all. My take is more likely that Sam Lane was an idealist who ran afoul of big business and/or the government. Whatever the case, from an early age Lois came to the conclusion that power corrupts. And she sees her role as being the person to reveal that corruption. She and Perry have a running battle over just what stories Lois will cover. He assigns her to the cover the local Home and Garden Expo, she comes back with his story but also another one focusing on how union rules at the Metropolis Civic Center are chasing away vendors. With a limited handful of exceptions no one in politics will speak on or off the record to Lois , but they can't bar her from any public venue so she still finds a way to be a thorn in their side. So when a guy comes along with more power than anyone else on Earth and claiming to be championing Truth and Justice ... Lois at first sees another target whose corrupting needs exposure. Instead she has found one person who doesn't fit her preconceived notions. But how would she react to finding this paragon of Truth has been lying to her in both his identities for the past few years.

    Jimmy Olsen: By all rights he should be dead ... or a hero that outclasses Batman at every turn. Olsen seemingly stumbles and bumbles his way through life succeeding more often than not in spite of his best efforts. His backstory includes his being orphaned as a teen, working as an office boy, then briefly as a cub reporter before becoming a staff photographer for the Planet. During that time Olsen managed to become both the second most saved person by Superman and Superman's secret weapon. Some speculate that Jimmy is surrounded by a probablility field that causes things to either fail or succeed in a spectaculat manner. Others hold that James Olsen is a lot more talented than he himself believes and it is only his own lack of confidence that prevents Olsen from achieving great things.
    Interesting. And actually I think that's how Lois Lane would behave. It makes sense. Having a father who's in the military, perhaps she was raised in a somewhat authoritarian environment. As for Jimmy: Ha! a probability field? Cool. He's so lucky (or perhaps smarter than he realizes) that people can't help but speculate.

    All in all great ideas there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    It's comics. We can do whatever we want to do. I want Superman to create an utopia on Earth. Ala STAR TREK with humans colonising the solar system and a couple of neighboring stars. All thanks to ol' Supes getting involved in world's affairs instead of standing around speechifying. I want to see humanity getting into conflict with other alien species and Superman to serve as an ambassador of sorts. We can have our cake and eat it. All we need is imagination and not to be afraid of change.

    What about having Superman living in different timelines. A few adventures in the near past. Le't say when he was a teenager/young adult. Other set of adventures in the present with him in his early 30's and then adventures in the future. Let's say a hundred of so years from now. We can leave a few things vague enough so writers can exercise their creativity muscles comfortably.
    Kinda what I'm doing. I published a short sotry with him and WW in the far future, and currently "writing" another story (trying to figure out whether or not it will be a direct sequel of that first story). It would be interesting to see Superman in the far future. A far future when he hasn't aged one bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    We seem to be in the same page on a lot of things, man.
    Yeah, I noticed. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same way about Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, it'd be hard to judge exactly how Superman's influence would impact society. Its true that lots of positive philosophies and religions have failed to make sweeping changes over the course of centuries.

    But with Superman, its not a vague concept of behavior set down by a mysterious third party; the guy is right there, in your face, saving your city and your life and still taking the time to comfort a scared child or help a guy change his tire on the side of the highway. I think his impact on the world, especially if hes the first of his kind, would have a bigger impact because he's not a fairy tale or an idea put into dogma, he's right there. Its easy to ignore the teachings of a religion or philosophy when the source of that belief system is invisible and has no direct influence on things, but you can shake Superman's hand and look in his eyes, and that carries more weight.

    But even then, he wouldnt change things immediately. Even if he had been around for those 80 years of real-life publication I think we'd only be seeing the first signs of any meaningful change now, and those so small you could miss them if you weren't looking.

    The way I see it, and this is just a vague concept of an outline, nothing actually changes until nearly a century of Superman has gone by, and that's just small stuff, like volunteer work is on the rise, minor crime is down slightly across the globe, technology is advancing a little faster and is, maybe, more socially conscious. Stuff you might not even notice, but it's starting to add up a little bit. After nearly two hundred years you'd start to see some major shifts, like dedicated space exploration and the beginnings of a unified world government (basically the UN actually doing something worthwhile, not an actual single world government). By three hundred years you're starting to see a world leaning towards a working, single government (but likely still a long way off from achieving it), fewer wars being fought, and so on. I figure by four hundred years we're approaching the point we see the world at in the 31st century (though the details, like membership in the United Planets, is likely still centuries away).
    Interesting. And I agree. Perhaps Superman should - eventually of course - have a more visible impact in our society, beyond saving us time and again from whatever supervillain appears, and even from ourselves. If he leads by example, it stands to reason that after X amount of time seeing him doing the right thing, a lot of people would start following that example in their own way.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I do agree with you that there should be some incremental shifts in society's technology due to the emergence of the heroes. I don't think it should be quantum leaps in progress because why make it easy? There are fun sociological and political elements to gum up the works and make it interesting. More subtle ways that don't interrupt the delicate logic/balance of the DCU yet still give a little 'forward'.

    Superman is better in this area than Reed and Doom (even Stark)? I don't know about that, man. Reed has a whole room devoted to solving the problems of the world big and small. One Reed actually ends world hunger. We just saw Reed and Stark's extinction level contingency plans in Time Runs out and Secret Wars. Doom even admits that Reed could have found a way to save the whole of creation, and now he's remaking it. Osborn told the Sentry if he ever stepped out of line Reed or Doom would shut him down and there wouldn't be anything he could do about it. Superman is rarely the cures cancer or has a plan for the end guy, and when he is it's never even close to what Reed, Doom, or Stark can do and have done.

    But you see, even with all they COULD do, they don't because they are just men. Brilliant and amazing, but still just men. They self-sabotage, lose focus, and doubt themselves because they are humans. And Superman has always been the very same (I think it's pretty hard to argue that). He's human. Superman's hardly ever the high minded godling I hear about. In the comics he's more-often-than-not a guy who's either really freakin smart or just pretty dang sharp. He's not curing cancer or thinking up the next stage in human development in the new 52.

    The beauty of the character is that he's a man (heart soul and mind) in the body of a god.

    I think he sees the bigger picture (most incarnations) mostly on a sociological level. He goes out there and does his part with what he can do in hopes that the rest of us pitch in literally any little way we can. I'd imagine that he'd like all of our combined small kindnesses to make the big dents in the more complex issues somewhere down the line. I don't think he'll ever be able to save this planet alone, just like his celestial father before him. But I've learned that tomorrow always starts today for Clark Kent.
    Good post. Well thought out. And yeah, in a way I perceive that is what Superman does. For example, in "For Tomorrow", after Father Leone "reveals" to Superman he has cancer (IIRC he already knew) he asks him "can you cure cancer?" Superman answers "I don't know. And honestly I won't try, because..." That exchange of words stood with me ever since the first time I read it, more than 10 years ago. Perhaps Superman knows he can help mankind (he may very well have lied to Father Leone, and actually *could* cure cancer) but no so much that we become dependent on him for everything. He leads by example, and perhaps he actually can help us directly here and there, especially with some important events (wars, genocide, etc.), but he wants us to be the leads of our own evolution. He doesn't want us to depend on him. He will teach us how to walk, and guide us in our first steps, even reprimanding us when we go astray (yup, like a father to their children).

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    It is sort of a long percolating fan-fic that started from a Buffy the Vampire episode. I was watching an episode early on with Faith and Buffy's mom interacting. It dawned on me that the same way she seemed to see Faith as someone to take Buffy's place and keep her daughter safe could be applied to how the Kents saw Mon-El. "Look, Clark, we agree that using your powers to help out is a noble thing and we don't want you to necessarily stop. But now that your big brother is here maybe he can handle the alien invaders or Lex Luthor while you concentrate on school work and limit yourself to things closer to home".

    That briefly ignited the idea for a sort of refocused Smallville fan-fic TV series where I tried to plot out Clark's life from about 13 yrs old through college at 22-24 stories a year/season leading to a Superman series with JLA spinoffs. And even though that idea didn't hold my interest long enough to actually write more than a few outlines, I still keep adding little details in my head on-and off. It's my personal DCU that I play with/in when I get bored.

    The change in the Kents is a little quirky theory of mine. In my head canon the Pre-Crisis John Kent on Earth-2 wasn't a counterpart of the Earth-1 Jonathan Kent. Instead the Earth-1 John Kent and his wife Mary die childless (since the rocket didn't land in their lifetime like it did on Earth Two) and their farm is passed on to John's relative Jonathan (and his wife Martha). So the Earth-2 Jonathan would have been Earth-2 Superman's contemporary. So my Superman would be yet one generation removed from Earth-1 and be adopted by someone who would have been the Silver-Age or Byrne Superman's contemporary. So Jake Kent would remember the classic Ma and Pa Kent as older relatives that influenced him.
    Great. And I hear you. That's why, after who knows how many years (13, I think), I haven't finished that fanfic of mine (except that short story). Whenever I get enough inspiration, I go to my computer and write a few lines, and that's it. And every single time I open that file I reread the whole thing, looking for inconsistencies or ways to improve what I already wrote.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Great. And I hear you. That's why, after who knows how many years (13, I think), I haven't finished that fanfic of mine (except that short story). Whenever I get enough inspiration, I go to my computer and write a few lines, and that's it. And every single time I open that file I reread the whole thing, looking for inconsistencies or ways to improve what I already wrote.
    I do the same- though less frequently. I'm more likely to come up with an alternate idea about something and then try to think out which works better- a Legion from the future versus a contemporary team that might include Vartox, Maxima, and other Silver/Bronze Age alien heroes. Or whether it would make sense for teen Clark co-exist with Batman or for Superboy to have an adventure with an adult Bruce who hasn't yet donned the cowl.

  9. #114
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    Yeah, that's kinda my thought process as well. Some plot ideas come to mind, and I start toying with them by pitting them against other ones. Sadly, I rarely come up with a decision. *sigh* I guess I will decide the day I start wrinting for real.

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