Russos Say Chances Of Marvel Movies Adding LGBT Characters Are "Strong"

[Kieran_Frost]

Yea, OK it would fine to see a/or some LGBT characters in the MCU.
But at the same time, I am not invested in the idea like yourself, I am only bothered about seeing the primary characters, whom I'm a fan of, being adapted faithfully.

It just seems odd that you would say "I think that is a cool thing because it would reflect the real world diversity we have in the west today"; which is a very, very positive, supportive view of diversity, and yet seem to grudgingly acknowledge LGBT people? Cool vs "okay". BIG difference in how you feel.

EDIT- Isn't Groot asexual?
Does that count?

So you're saying Loki, Deadpool, Mystique and Iceman are gay or bisexual?
They've never been portrayed that way in films/other media (not seen Deadpool yet).

...
(that's the entire point of this debate)

But 99% of the population is heterosexual as such that's what the vast majority of audiences relate/identify to.

You're stats are way off.

Also Kieran- you shouldn't have to have LGBT characters in the MCU in order to get fully behind them and love the films. For example some of my favourite musicians ever were bisexual, but I could give two shits about what they do in the bedroom because I'm a fan of their music.

You dont have to be hetero to identify with a hetero characters either.

I think it's important to point out, since this is an erroneous assumption: LGBT people DO support and identify with str8 characters. They have to; it's what we've been exposed to our entire lives. 95% of media is str8 people; from comics to films to books to TV to music to musicals even (and especially the most lauded, acclaimed, important and beloved classics are nearly always str8). I mean, no-one here REALLY thinks the LGBT posters have spent their lives only reading or watching or supporting or enjoying or listening to LGBT artists... right? LGBT people connect and identify with str8 characters all the damn time. It's not hard (it only seems asking a str8 person to identify with an LGBT character that it becomes, to some, something that is not possible).

None of the main marvel characters the MCU is working with are gay/bi, so there is a difficulty on introducing one.

Loki is, and they ignored it.

I would say the lack of asian representation is more worrisome. There are way more Asians than lgbt and there are none slated for a fipm of their own. Maybe Kamala Khan in the future as a character of asian descent?

100% Disagree. Asian people exist in the MCU films, the same is not true of LGBT people. Complete absence is more worrisome than lack of central focus. No-one here is demanding an LGBT solo film; we're objecting to the fact across 10+ films, not even a minor character is LGBT. It's a colossal failing. That said, I want better Asian rep too; and I hope that'll come soon.

[Kieran_Frost]

I feel the same. Abrams said he'd consider a gay character for STID, and passed on doing it. He said that it's possible that Ep VIII could have a gay character as well, but Abrams is no longer the director (a decision he made before TFA came out and the draft of Ep VIII was written), so I doubt he'll have the pull as a producer to make his claim happen now.

At the end of the day, I don't expect any Disney property to be inclusive and or progressive. They couldn't even cast an Asian actor for an Asian character ( the Ancient One and The Mandarin), there's nothing that makes me believe they'll create a gay character or a non hetero relationship in one of their IPs.

Ugh, Abrams. Lost is a classic example of how little he thinks about LGBT people.

The context of "what serves the plot" is always up to the writer. The perception by the viewers will always be subjective based off their own pre conceived ideas and notions. Heterosexual romance is almost always okay and often never needs to prove it's worth in a story (even if the story has nothing to do with romance or sexuality) and often exists for the sake of itself but any other identity must "make sense."

QUOTED FOR TRUTH! How was the plot in Winter Soldier served by Falcon pointing out how much he loves the ladies TWICE in the space of 5 minutes of his introduction? How was the plot served by Fury mentioning he had a wife? How was the plot served by a random soldier in the van saying he loves to entertain the French ladies? How was the plot served by Jane's friend commenting on how hot Thor is? The idea that sexuality only comes up for plot reasons is false. Utterly, utterly false.

I've already said that the young avengers are the best bet to have lgbt representatives in the MCU. But I doubt Billy can lead a film like Kamala can.

Why would you think Kamala has more of a chance being a successful lead than Billy????

One thing that bugs the hell out of me (bearing in mind I haven't read the whole thread), is when people argue against the notion of LGBT characters in their sci-fi/fantasy franchise, saying it wouldn't be organic, no matter what it is. Marvel, DC, Star Trek, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc. Suddenly, they're against sexuality being explored at all because "it's not supposed to be about sex" or they say that somehow, gay relationships imply hot nasty sex happening while straight relationships are about love(like Han and Leia). It comes off to me as rationalizing. Romance has always played some role in these franchises even if it isn't the main focus, so to say sexual orientation has no place in these franchises is an outright lie, and to imply that a heterosexual romantic relationship doesn't at least subtly imply sex while gay relationships do is ludicrous and offensive. It smacks of the argument that only heterosexuals can feel love for each other while gays are just perverts.

It may be hard having to wait so much time, but the situation is the one it is.

Marvels' indifference to tackling LGBT characters, the EiC's indifference to the lack of LGBT Avengers, producers indifference to LGBT characters... that has got us to where we are today. Indifference and shoulder shrugging never changes anything.

How about Marvel starts with having good enough diversity for people of color before adding highly controversial LGBT characters?

How about we do both? The MCU films haven't always done a great job in how they use POCs, but they certainly haven't ignored they exist (they way they have with LGBT characters).

[The Negative Zone]

How about we do both? The MCU films haven't always done a great job in how they use POCs, but they certainly haven't ignored they exist (they way they have with LGBT characters).

Well if people were already more tolerant to people of color, they would be more likely to support LGBT characters in film.

[Kieran_Frost]

Well if people were already more tolerant to people of color, they would be more likely to support LGBT characters in film.

At least in the world of Marvel films they are more tolerant, based on appearances vs. absence. Now have they handled POC in a good way: debatable. The newest films went a long way in correcting that (sooooooooooooooooo EXCITED for the BP movie). But you cannot argue with the fact we'll never get to see how they handle an LGBT character in the films if none ever appear. No-one here is asking why isn't an LGBT character not the lead of every Marvel film, no-one here is asking why don't we have an LGBT solo film like Captain Marvel or Black Panther upcoming; people are only asking why are we completely and utterly absent from even one-liner roles in films that show (numerous times) that they have time for non-plot related moments of sexuality from main cast, supporting cast and one-liners (the difference is it's 100% heterosexual sexuality).

[WhipWhirlwind]

Who do you think would logically fit at this point in the MCU?

Obviously, young avengers are there. Especially in a post civil war world. I also think there are some supporting characters you could easily swap.

For example, Harry Osborne and Flash Thompson are two characters who are not at all defined by their sexuality as far as I know. I'll admit the "jock bully ends up being gay" thing could be a negative stereotype (I genuinely don't know), but I could see Harry working well. It would certainly add an interesting dimension to his relationship with Norman, who is generally depicted as something of an alpha male type and strikes me as the type who would want to "fix" him if he knew.

[JKtheMac]

This is not a promising statement, couldn't they just make a lesbian Captian Marvel, or a bisexual Doctor Strange. The way to do this is surely to do it boldly with a headline character not some minor character off to the side. Reminds me of the Once Upon a Time issue all over again only from a slower start.

[JKtheMac]

At least in the world of Marvel films they are more tolerant, based on appearances vs. absence. Now have they handled POC in a good way: debatable. The newest films went a long way in correcting that (sooooooooooooooooo EXCITED for the BP movie). But you cannot argue with the fact we'll never get to see how they handle an LGBT character in the films if none ever appear. No-one here is asking why isn't an LGBT character not the lead of every Marvel film, no-one here is asking why don't we have an LGBT solo film like Captain Marvel or Black Panther upcoming; people are only asking why are we completely and utterly absent from even one-liner roles in films that show (numerous times) that they have time for non-plot related moments of sexuality from main cast, supporting cast and one-liners (the difference is it's 100% heterosexual sexuality).

Sorry didn't read that. Guess I just did ask that!

[WhipWhirlwind]

This is not a promising statement, couldn't they just make a lesbian Captian Marvel, or a bisexual Doctor Strange. The way to do this is surely to do it boldly with a headline character not some minor character off to the side. Reminds me of the Once Upon a Time issue all over again only from a slower start.

Well Doctor Strange is likely not happening, I feel that we would know by now if it was. I'm also expecting McAdams to be somewhat of a romantic interest, likely establishing him as straight.

That's totally fair though, and I'd certainly support it. Unfortunately I'm also trying to take into account the perspective of Disney, who seems to be very invested in playing it safe and doing what they can to capture every dollar/demographic they can.

Also, because clearly this is a factor, what is the climate in China regarding LGBT characters?

[Kieran_Frost]

Who do you think would logically fit at this point in the MCU?

Loki's the simplest, easiest choice, since he's already in the films. Moondragon/Phyla in GotG2 is a the next most logical (though the director said he was categorically told "no space lesbians").

Obviously, young avengers are there. Especially in a post civil war world. I also think there are some supporting characters you could easily swap.

They could have shown Hawkeye having a husband rather than a wife; it wouldn't have changed anything (and would elaborate on why he's so secretive about that part of his life). Or they could have had one of Jane Foster's science team be male and eye up Thor (again, simple switch). Or have a male character mention their husband in passing (as they've done with str8 males mentioning wives). Or have Black Widow mention how attractive a woman is to Steve, and have Natasha say "I would." Or even just have two same-sex couple walking past a shot hand in hand. It's simple. It was doable; and they choose not to do it.

For example, Harry Osborne and Flash Thompson are two characters who are not at all defined by their sexuality as far as I know. I'll admit the "jock bully ends up being gay" thing could be a negative stereotype (I genuinely don't know), but I could see Harry working well. It would certainly add an interesting dimension to his relationship with Norman, who is generally depicted as something of an alpha male type and strikes me as the type who would want to "fix" him if he knew.

I think the bully being a bully because he's scared of being gay isn't offensive (it happens... A LOT). It's not a negative stereotype if it ends positively. Yes it's been done, but right now I'd bet 95% of LGBT fans would take that over utter absence. I like the Harry suggestion too. Or you have Black Cat (who's bisexual already?). Just use her and actually acknowledge it.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Loki's the simplest, easiest choice, since he's already in the films. Moondragon/Phyla in GotG2 is a the next most logical (though the director said he was categorically told "no space lesbians").

Holy crap that is messed up. How is that any different from being told "No lesbians"?

They could have shown Hawkeye having a husband rather than a wife; it wouldn't have changed anything (and would elaborate on why he's so secretive about that part of his life). Or they could have had one of Jane Foster's science team be male and eye up Thor (again, simple switch). Or have a male character mention their husband in passing (as they've done with str8 males mentioning wives). Or have Black Widow mention how attractive a woman is to Steve, and have Natasha say "I would." Or even just have two same-sex couple walking past a shot hand in hand. It's simple. It was doable; and they choose not to do it.

True, that would definitely be easy to do.

I think the bully being a bully because he's scared of being gay isn't offensive (it happens... A LOT). It's not a negative stereotype if it ends positively. Yes it's been done, but right now I'd bet 95% of LGBT fans would take that over utter absence. I like the Harry suggestion too. Or you have Black Cat (who's bisexual already?). Just use her and actually acknowledge it.

Yeah I just genuinely wasn't sure.

And just thinking of Flash's army ambitions there's more conflict there too, not to mention if Peter found out that could be a good place to build their friendship. Since he would have every reason to use it against him.

[Kieran_Frost]

This is not a promising statement, couldn't they just make a lesbian Captian Marvel, or a bisexual Doctor Strange. The way to do this is surely to do it boldly with a headline character not some minor character off to the side. Reminds me of the Once Upon a Time issue all over again only from a slower start.

Let's aim for getable targets, such as minor roles for now. Marvel comics has never seen fit to give us a gay solo comic, and Angela is POSSIBLY their first lesbian solo comic (it's not clear if she's bi or lesbian or pansexual). If they won't even try a comic, they'll never do it for a solo film. They aren't brave enough to go from no LGBT people to "LGBT solo film." It just won't happen.

Unfortunately I'm also trying to take into account the perspective of Disney, who seems to be very invested in playing it safe and doing what they can to capture every dollar/demographic they can.

Eh. They're a billion pound company, I'm not worried about "seeing it from their point of view." They can hug their billions when the going gets tough. LGBT kids wanting to see themselves in cool superhero films have no such luck.

Also, because clearly this is a factor, what is the climate in China regarding LGBT characters?

Good question. While China is hardly a great place to be LGBT, it's no-where near as bad as Russia. China doesn't have gay marriage, but being gay isn't punishable and more and more is becoming public and accepted. China certainly has (arguably) as much an issue with black characters as they would with gay characters; and that didn't stop Disney adding black characters front and centre (so the "concern" of damaging a market isn't the be-all-and-end-all of every decision they make).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China

Disney isn't excluding LGBT characters because of a fear of a market reaction, they are doing it because no-one at Disney/Marvel cares about including LGBT characters. Doesn't mean they are anti-LGBT, it means they are indifferent and it's not on their radar. If we had someone high-up care, it would have happened by now. We don't. Hence: absence.

[JKtheMac]

Well Doctor Strange is likely not happening, I feel that we would know by now if it was. I'm also expecting McAdams to be somewhat of a romantic interest, likely establishing him as straight.

That's totally fair though, and I'd certainly support it. Unfortunately I'm also trying to take into account the perspective of Disney, who seems to be very invested in playing it safe and doing what they can to capture every dollar/demographic they can.

Also, because clearly this is a factor, what is the climate in China regarding LGBT characters?

I think China would need to be considered carefully, but they are not above editing things for the Chinese audience. The main way around this would be to lower the budget a little and play to the home and European audience. I honestly feel the majority of UK MCU fans would be fine with a lead character that was gay as long they didn't go for a deliberate shock tactic. If Captain Marvel was pitched as a Top Gun movie perhaps? (I know that is a little tounge in cheek but I would love that movie.)

[WhipWhirlwind]

Eh. They're a billion pound company, I'm not worried about "seeing it from their point of view." They can hug their billions when the going gets tough. LGBT kids wanting to see themselves in cool superhero films have no such luck.

Oh don't get me wrong, its not "oh poor disney lets see it from their side", more "they are making the movies, so their view has to be considered if we're being realistic"

While China is hardly a great place to be LGBT, it's no-where near as bad as Russia. China doesn't have gay marriage, but being gay isn't punishable and more and more is becoming public and accepted. China certainly has (arguably) as much an issue with black characters as they would with gay characters; and that didn't stop Disney adding black characters front and centre (so the "concern" of damaging a market isn't the be-all-and-end-all of every decision they make).

Disney isn't excluding LGBT characters because of a fear of a market reaction, they are doing it because no-one at Disney/Marvel cares about including LGBT characters. Doesn't mean they are anti-LGBT, it means they are indifferent and it's not on their radar. If we had someone high-up care, it would have happened by now. We don't. Hence: absence.

First point acknowledged, but as for fear of market reaction, I'm not so sure.

I think when it comes to a decision to have an LGBT character headline a film there would be significant concern when it comes to market reaction. Hell, I'm sure its a huge factor as to why we don't have a black widow film, even if we both know a well done MCU female led action film has nothign to do with elektra,catwoman, etc.

I think China would need to be considered carefully, but they are not above editing things for the Chinese audience. The main way around this would be to lower the budget a little and play to the home and European audience. I honestly feel the majority of UK MCU fans would be fine with a lead character that was gay as long they didn't go for a deliberate shock tactic. If Captain Marvel was pitched as a Top Gun movie perhaps? (I know that is a little tounge in cheek but I would love that movie.)

That's true, good point.

[JKtheMac]

Angela has only had one love interest in the Marvel runs although she seemed to take a shine to Gamora too. BTW, the last scene in Angela almost redeemed the volume, if only the style hadn't gone so self referential and fourth wall breaking for the preceeding comics. I believe she has been in more Marvel comics than any other now, and I think she was at least hinted at being gay in her Image mini but I can't remember. (It wasn't very good is all I remember.)

[Kieran_Frost]

Holy crap that is messed up. How is that any different from being told "No lesbians"?

Welcome to the world of LGBT inclusion. Harry Potter, Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel; lots of magical universes where LGBT don't exist.

And just thinking of Flash's army ambitions there's more conflict there too, not to mention if Peter found out that could be a good place to build their friendship. Since he would have every reason to use it against him.

Good point. I really like this idea, actually.

Oh don't get me wrong, its not "oh poor disney lets see it from their side", more "they are making the movies, so their view has to be considered if we're being realistic"

First point acknowledged, but as for fear of market reaction, I'm not so sure.

I think when it comes to a decision to have an LGBT character headline a film there would be significant concern when it comes to market reaction. Hell, I'm sure its a huge factor as to why we don't have a black widow film, even if we both know a well done MCU female led action film has nothign to do with elektra,catwoman, etc.

"Realistically" having one of Jane Foster's lab buddies be male and make ONE comment about Thor being sexy wouldn't have dented their revenue. Period. THAT'S reality. An LGBT solo film, I agree, that's a much bigger market risk (because you need abroad) but ONE line LGBT reference, nah; that's not a film killer. At all. Black Widow made (to many) a very offensive comment regarding women having babies in Age of Ultron, that one line didn't kill the movie, and women are 50% of the planet.

I think China would need to be considered carefully, but they are not above editing things for the Chinese audience. The main way around this would be to lower the budget a little and play to the home and European audience. I honestly feel the majority of UK MCU fans would be fine with a lead character that was gay as long they didn't go for a deliberate shock tactic. If Captain Marvel was pitched as a Top Gun movie perhaps? (I know that is a little tounge in cheek but I would love that movie.)

China is probably (as a comparison) around UK mid 90s in terms of accepting homosexuality. And the UK would be totally fine with LGBT characters in Marvel (we're far more accepting that the US with gay rights, partly because we have a lot less religious influence still governing our society). Remember it was the US that edited out the gay part of Pride's video back cover.

Angela has only had one love interest in the Marvel runs although she seemed to take a shine to Gamora too. BTW, the last scene in Angela almost redeemed the volume, if only the style hadn't gone so self referential and fourth wall breaking for the preceeding comics. I believe she has been in more Marvel comics than any other now, and I think she was at least hinted at being gay in her Image mini but I can't remember. (It wasn't very good is all I remember.)

I didn't even buy the last issue for that very reason, it lost me. The story structure was good, but the dialogue's attempt to be "cool" and "modern" really turned me off. LOVED Sera under Gillen, once he left... she got a bit annoying.