Captain America: Civil War *SPOILERS*

[Agent Z]

Then where did the King's hostility toward the Avengers come from? He wasn't angry at Crossbones, he was angry at them.



The Avengers are individuals who cooperate with each other, they are free to come and go as they please with a common interest that unities them. The Sokovia Accords are not a form of cooperation. It is an opinion backed by threat of violence if the Avengers fail to comply.


If these individuals decided to stay solo heroes and Nick Fury tried to force them into becoming the Avengers I'd have an objection to that as well.



Individualism doesn't have to be perfect in order to be better than collectivism. Logic doesn't just apply to the Avengers, it applies to everyone because that's how logic works.

If the UN passed some crazy law saying people who are capable of benching 250+ pounds are loose cannons and therefore can't try to save weaker people without getting permission from the UN beforehand, that would be just as wrong. I'm talking about the Avengers because that's what the movie is about, but logic is universal.



A nation or military is simply a larger collection of individuals.

Lets say the UN succeed in assassinating most of the Avengers and now have an enraged Hulk, Thor, Iron Man and Vision out for their blood. How does that scenario end for the UN?



Without oversight? Each individual person thinks for themselves, that is the oversight. If one individual goes crazy the other individuals will try to stop them according to their own judgement. You keep using these gentle words like "oversight" or "cooperation", the Sokovia Accord is not a suggestion, it is a threat.

The people who work in the government do not decide right and wrong and they don't own other people either.

Let me remind you that aside from a few angry comments, the Avengers did nothing to punish Stark in AoU. Nor did they do anything to Wanda after what she had the Hulk do to Johannesburg. Show's how well they manage themselves.

If the Avengers aren't perfect yet can still be trusted why can't the U.N.

Furthermore, the Accords were said to be open for amendment somewhere down the line.

The king's anger came from the Avengers barging in unannounced, uninvited and escalating an already dangerous situation. That doesn't mean Crossbones' part was ignored.

A person choosing to do as they please regardless of how it affects others is not oversight. It's arrogance. And as I said, Stark faced zero consequences from the other Avengers in AoU and hell Banner did nothing to stop him either.

[dragonmp93]

Let me remind you that aside from a few angry comments, the Avengers did nothing to punish Stark in AoU. Nor did they do anything to Wanda after what she had the Hulk do to Johannesburg. Show's how well they manage themselves.

If the Avengers aren't perfect yet can still be trusted why can't the U.N.

Furthermore, the Accords were said to be open for amendment somewhere down the line.

The king's anger came from the Avengers barging in unannounced, uninvited and escalating an already dangerous situation. That doesn't mean Crossbones' part was ignored.

A person choosing to do as they please regardless of how it affects others is not oversight. It's arrogance. And as I said, Stark faced zero consequences from the other Avengers in AoU and hell Banner did nothing to stop him either.

Well, traumatized superhumans are not the same thing as politicians.
And the only one talking about amendments was Black Widow, and her idea was more like twisting the accords to the points that they were just pretty words on paper.

[Agent Z]

Well, traumatized superhumans are not the same thing as politicians.
And the only one talking about amendments was Black Widow, and her idea was more like twisting the accords to the points that they were just pretty words on paper.

What are you talking about?

[Kasper Cole]

Well, traumatized superhumans are not the same thing as politicians.
And the only one talking about amendments was Black Widow, and her idea was more like twisting the accords to the points that they were just pretty words on paper.

This is incorrect. Stark mentioned filing a motion to make amendments to the Accords when he was talking to Steve.

[Kasper Cole]

Eh, King T'chaka and who else ?, i wonder how close is the MCU to real life in that regard.

We don't know who else, but we also can't just assume that none of the other 116 nations wouldn't be willing to hear the Avengers concerns.

And i think that everyone here knows that Ross is the UN's mouthpiece and liaison.

Ross is the Secretary of State for the United states, part of why he dealt with the Avengers more than anyone else is because they're based in the U.S. and the team if filled with Ex military.

[tkitna]

Isn't Gyrich an X-Men character?

He screwed with the Avengers before in the comics.

[Ronin705]

He screwed with the Avengers before in the comics.

It's crazy to me how many movie versions of these characters we've seen at this point

[PhantomStranger]

This is the aspect that people keep overlooking.

They're seeing the issue from the perspective of the Avengers, whom they've followed and know from multiple films over multiple years. The audience knows that the Avengers are ultimately good people with good intentions but the average person in the MCU doesn't know these people beyond what little info they get via the media.

If group like that existed in our world and went about things the way the Avengers do (going into other countries without permission, refusing to be held accountable for mistakes made that resulted in lives lost) people would be staunchly against it.

As I've pointed out several times elsewhere, you're buying into the BS notion that they did anything wrong to begin with. Not fully succeeding is NOT the same as "making mistakes". They were working to a plan (get the explosion clear of people). It was a good plan, the correct plan. Wanda's strength simply gave out before she got it far enough away.

Current society is so cravenly risk-averse and phobic about collateral damage that it's a wonder we can even function.

If you simply MUST play the "blame game", do it RIGHT: blame Crossbones and his terrorist thugs who wanted to steal a bioweapon.

[MindofShadow]

As I've pointed out several times elsewhere, you're buying into the BS notion that they did anything wrong to begin with. Not fully succeeding is NOT the same as "making mistakes". They were working to a plan (get the explosion clear of people). It was a good plan, the correct plan. Wanda's strength simply gave out before she got it far enough away.

Current society is so cravenly risk-averse and phobic about collateral damage that it's a wonder we can even function.

If you simply MUST play the "blame game", do it RIGHT: blame Crossbones and his terrorist thugs who wanted to steal a bioweapon.

And who do you blame in AoU?

a) they created Ultron. That is 100% on the Avengers.

b) Wanda caused Hulk to freak out. But... the avengers knew she was a mind manipulator. They left Hulk by himself in a quinjet. Kinda how Ross put it... the left a nuclear bomb sitting their unattended. THey brought a hulk near a civilian population.

There is SOME blame the Avengers get. They definitely should get tons of PRAISE as well.

[chico25]

That's still plays into Iron Fist's point. They can still be used, so why not use them to take down countries, instead of the obvious as all hell helicarriers? Why would they need that secure their power when they could send these agents out to kill whoever they want, and make it look like an accident? It's in the same vein of Hydra not using the cube they had in their possession for decades.

Hydra was being covert until they could eliminate all threats to their rule. Howard Stark found and had the cube, most likely locked away, until his death. Then Fury was keeping tabs on it so any attempts to use it without justification would have raised red flags. Thor showing up gave them justification and they immediately started a program to weaponize it. The one Hydra guy on the council was pissed Thor took it even after all the destruction it lead to. The helicarrier plan was genius in that if it worked without them being revealed first they could have killed all their greatest threats simultaneously before anyone realized something was wrong. In the real world we have drones that can bomb a town and be gone before they are ever seen. Imagine 3 of those the size of aircraft carriers that can cloak, use facial recognition from any where in the world and carry stealth jets that can launch nukes. The world was completely on board with those being built and launched, hell they were toasting champagne to it until Steve revealed Hydra was controlling them. A hand full of super soldiers you can't control is nothing compared to that.

[chico25]

The very fact that he had to maneuver them at all makes it that it wasn't of their own will. If he doesn't take control of Bucky there is no more chasing Cap around. The conflict only continued because of the that horribly written interrogation, and then escape, scene. He had to intervene because Bucky got caught.

He makes the Avengers destroy themselves, and thus it's he who destroyed the Avengers. It was his plan, that he actively got involved in. It would've made more sense if he was in Ross's position, and was with the Accords, and the very Accords doing it for him, and that's why he pushed it; because he knew it would split them. This plot? It doesn't work without him getting physically involved, and thus it's him destroying the Avengers.

He wanted Bucky to get caught it's why he framed him. He wanted to know the location of the base in Siberia and the only way to find the only person he could force to tell him was to have the world flush him out. He had already kidnapped and killed the interrogator to take whatever security id he had so he could replace him. His plan was to give them the tools and reason to iimplode.

[Kasper Cole]

As I've pointed out several times elsewhere, you're buying into the BS notion that they did anything wrong to begin with. Not fully succeeding is NOT the same as "making mistakes". They were working to a plan (get the explosion clear of people). It was a good plan, the correct plan. Wanda's strength simply gave out before she got it far enough away.

Current society is so cravenly risk-averse and phobic about collateral damage that it's a wonder we can even function.

If you simply MUST play the "blame game", do it RIGHT: blame Crossbones and his terrorist thugs who wanted to steal a bioweapon.

And as I've said several times, Steve and Wanda are the ones that say they made mistakes. Cap admits that he messed up because he froze as soon as he heard Bucky's name, Crossbones used that opportunity to set the bomb off.

You acting as if I'm saying the Avengers are just evil and to blame for everything that goes wrong. What I'm saying is the Avengers are mostly a force for good, but they've made mistakes in the process that have cost people their lives. During those times they should be held accountable in some way.

It's no different than when a SWAT team goes into a dangerous situation. They may ultimately stop the person they're after, but if lives are lost during the incident there will be an investigating to find out whether or not that loss of life was preventable. IF it's found out that that people died because of mistake the team made the appropriate steps are (or at least should) taken. That's not an unreasonable standard to hold the Avengers to while they're out doing what they do.

[chico25]

1) What I'm saying is that they didn't even check him, NOR did they have take any precautions with him. This guy is walking into room with Bucky alone. They already know that Hydra has spies everywhere, and the interrogator could be one, but not only do they not check him, they leave in that room alone. Why isn't Cap in there? He trusts Cap, so he'd likely be more willing to speak with a familiar face in the room.

Also, if they checked his bag, they would've saw the suspicious, tattered red book, and flip through it looking for hidden weapons, or devices, and saw all that code speak. You're telling me that they'll check everything at the airport, but not there?

That scene was contrived.

Cap hadn't signed the accords and was there as a prisoner. Zemo was being watched the whole time in the room. If they checked his bag they would have seen a book, hand written in Russian. If they didn't read Russian it could have been written off as a journal the interrogator kept notes in making it seem normal for him to pull it out during an investigation.

[PyroTwilight]

And as I've said several times, Steve and Wanda are the ones that say they made mistakes. Cap admits that he messed up because he froze as soon as he heard Bucky's name, Crossbones used that opportunity to set the bomb off.

You acting as if I'm saying the Avengers are just evil and to blame for everything that goes wrong. What I'm saying is the Avengers are mostly a force for good, but they've made mistakes in the process that have cost people their lives. During those times they should be held accountable in some way.

It's no different than when a SWAT team goes into a dangerous situation. They may ultimately stop the person they're after, but if lives are lost during the incident there will be an investigating to find out whether or not that loss of life was preventable. IF it's found out that that people died because of mistake the team made the appropriate steps are (or at least should) taken. That's not an unreasonable standard to hold the Avengers to while they're out doing what they do.

It's good reasoning too but simply put the Avengers aren't in that same type of league.

It's not like there's replacement Avengers prepared to work if the Avengers fail. If there were it'd be a lot more understandable.



Too much of the film has the Avengers getting blame for things they couldn't have stopped otherwise (Ultron not withstanding)

I mean I wonder how many people would be all in on the Accords if they knew the World Council's answer to the Chitauri was nuking NYC (or at least Manhattan)?

The film tries to act like the governments of the world are somehow better equipped to stop world ending events or be rational and accountable. They're not. Avengers and Winter Soldier made that pretty clear.

[chico25]

1) Yes, they were winning...so why release the Winter Soldier to kill Fury now...when the Avengers are freaking active? Why do it in freaking daylight. Why not do it when Cap and Widow were on a mission? If they were ever going to do it, they should've at least done it BEFORE he thawed out Cap.

2) The Avenger Initiative was brought up 4 years before the events of the Avengers movie. They had the Cube, and they had Soldiers, why do they need the Avengers? Why did they let Fury gather a bunch of people they can't completely control?

3) They used that technology AFTER the fact. Tony wasn't contracted by them to do it. He did it himself, and then donated it to them. They could've killed him anytime before IM2, or AFTER he created the new reactor tech, because by then he was definitely a threat.

4) But they could control the Soldiers thru mind control. Hell, they already did what they did to Bucky BEFORE creating the other ones.

5) "Hey, I met your friend Bucky." *Cap freezes*

Inside Cap's head: "Why did he say that name? Why did he say that name?!"

Or just as contrived, all the convenient things that happened in this movie.

1) He was more of an asset than a liability until he had the ship hijacked and stole their algorithm.

2) That initiative was killed in committee when Thor showed up and the cube being used was the new plan. It only got brought up again when the cube was stolen. The soldiers were unstable and unreliable not a good combo for precise operations.

3) They learned from Stain not to kill the golden goose. In Ironman 2 they tried to take his suits but couldn't, but made him a consultant to Shield which kept him as a potential asset.

4) The movie made it clear that the serum made the control of them tenuous at best and they could turn on their handlers at any time. They were too unreliable and dangerous to be useful for a group trying to keep a low profile.

5) What was more likely running through his head was whether Crossbones knew where Bucky was at the moment.

Probably was, but that still makes them look stupid, because they had 4 years to stop it.

Like I said before, they stopped it politically then took the chance to stop it again while they could justify it.