Captain America: Civil War *SPOILERS*

[Sain]

Not sure if there was spoiler talk thread, feel free to delete if so.

I saw the early screening and uuh, well...**** this is the greatest super hero movie I have ever seen. It either bumped up over Winter Solder for me, or they stand at equal height because they hold different somewhat tones.

I'll try to remember everything, if not that's what the thread is for, to come back to and discuss!

Suspense, check.

Action = spectacular, check.

Conflict, big check.

Feel like I was 5 again? Bish you guessed it.

Humor? Spot on.

Beautifully shot? You betcha.

Spider-man? After all we've gotten in the past 10 or so years...give me more.

This movie hit every mark, ticked every box, and absolutely delivered on all fronts.

Ahhh but the villain. Zemo wasn't the main priority, but he still did his thing and there should be more to come so I'll give him a pass.

Ahhh, let's talk it up. I'll trickle the memorable details as we discuss.

[TooFlyToFail]

Pros:

- RDJ's performance as Tony Stark carries this movie. While it is Cap movie, it's his emotional performance, and the guilt he has, that actually brings weight to the situation and to their actions. Wanda may gasp after accidently killing those people, and she may turn away when reminded of her failures, but she gets over it quickly (more on that in the cons). Still, this is definitely the Stark I wanted to see following his performance in IM3 and AoU (even tho both movies are poor, imo, his performance in them are still good).

- T'Challa was awesome. He's the only character, besides the 3 leads, that got an actual character arc. I loved how he was regal, even if fueled by vengeance, which was great to see. His realization of the path he was heading towards was a better done version of what we saw from Batman, in BvS (yes, there will be comparisons, but when appropriate).

- Ant-Man was hilarious, and was a major highlight when he turned giant. I liked how he wasn't overpowered when that happened either. Good addition...for the most part (more on that later).

- Vision was perfect, even tho he wasn't a big part of the movie. Simple as that.

- Spidey...I'd be lying if I told you I didn't have a big stupid grin on my face when "QUEEN'S" showed up on the screen, and stayed on the entire time during that scene. He was a major highlight for me during the airport fight scene.

- Bucky was good in this movie, and I was happy to see him take responsibility for himself, because we know Cap wasn't.

- Falcon was cool, and his comedy was very timely.

- Rhodes, while not in this movie a lot, his final scenes with Stark really sold his character, and his and Tony's friendship.

- While not the Zemo I wanted to see, Brul played a pretty good villain with what he had. I enjoyed his scene with T'Challa, and the Soldier activation, scenes greatly.

- The airport scene is the best fighting scene in a CBM I've ever seen, with only the BvS warehouse fight scene coming in really close. The action as a whole was very well done tho.


Cons:

- This is a nitpick, but Spider-Man seemed nerfed during the airport scene. Like nerfed from Stark's footage of him, lol. We were shown him stopping a 3000lb car, going at 60mph (I think), instantly...but Cap over powered him, and (Gi)Ant-Man accidentaly knocked him out? I don't buy that. Also, the distinct lack of Spider Sense was quite striking. I'm guessing it's going to be treated like a secondary mutation in his solo movie, assuming he doesn't have it yet. Still, I very much enjoyed his scenes.

- The Sokovia Accords are put to the back burner, which can be accepted as long as other MCU movies (like Capt. Marvel, Ant-Man 2, and Spider-Man address it). An Iron Man 4 would really help in this regard.

- Wanda. Her character is a hypocritical character, and she makes no sense. We were told that she was going to get an arc in the movie, but we didn't get that at all. It's like she refuses to acknowledge that she's now become the Stark bomb/missile, that her, and Pietro, waited in fear to finally explode. While Tony takes the blame for AoU, she's the reason why that all happened. Yes, she reacts appropriately when she killed those people, but she didn't really react to Sokovia, and she didn't seem to dwell too much on the Lagos incident after the first Ross scene. It's like the speech that Vision gave completely flew over her head. Vision was proven right: They are not in control of everything, and their very presence created these "challenges", as he put it. Why did she betray Vision, and escape? Vision was right, and you think her killing those people would've hit her with Tony level guilt, but it didn't. She even chastised Clint for pulling his punches. I get it, but why is that person directly responsible for so many deaths in the movies she's been in the one to say that? Makes no sense. She should be on Tony's team, if she felt the guilt the way he did.

- What's up with these motivations to be on Team Cap? Clint has a family, including a recently born baby, and yet he decided to go fugitive? Why is siding with Cap suddenly more important than your kids. "Disappointing my kids." Why tho? What if he'd been killed? What would his family do then? Even now, he's a fugitive to the world, and Tony knows where he lives, he's gotta move his family now, or keep his distance now. Scott Lang? Why is he on Cap's side? I understand agreeing with Cap, and Pym's influence ("Never trust a Stark"...because they've never saved the world, or anything, right?), but you just got on your ex-wife's good side, and can spend time with his daughter...why would he then make himself the enemy of the United Nations, for people he doesn't know personally? Why is Wanda on his side, because Cap let's her out to play? She just killed people, so needs to take responsibility and sit the hell out of it. She deserves no sympathy.

- Steve Rogers. I get why he's doing what he's doing, but that's not the point. The point is that he's still in that soldier mentality: Collateral damage, and casualties, are part of war, and I don't have to deal with any consequences. He can talk about the potential cons of the Sokovia Accords all he wants, but he outright refused to acknowledge the concept of taking responsibility for his actions. Like Rhodes said, that is highly arrogant, and yet the character never speaks on it. The world is best in their hands? Hello, Vision just explained to you that bad things are happening also because of y'all doing what you do. Zemo only did what he did because of the actions of current Avengers. He let's Wanda back on the field, despite her killing innocent people. He admits that his judgement gets cloudy when it involves Bucky, but he still defends him so fiercely.

- Brul, while he did great as Zemo, his plan very much only possible due to conveniences. Wanda killing those people, Stark feeling the guilt he did, Cap's loyalty to Bucky, Black Panther suddenly showing up to catch/detain Bucky, Cap having so many supporters, Iron Man actually going to Siberia at all, let alone by himself...if those things don't happen his plan doesn't work at all. People criticized BvS for something similar happening with Lex, in that Batman conveniently wanted to have the deathmatch at that exact moment. Yet, despite Zemo's scheme needing many more conveniences, I don't see much criticism for it. Why is that?

- BvS was criticized for the lack of a fair conversation between the Bats and Supes,...where is that same criticism for Civil War. Yes, they converse/discuss, but Steve literally refuses to see the cons of his side, and NOBODY on his side acknowledges those cons. At least Alfred was there to point out the bad decisions of him, and Bruce's side. At least Superman acknowledges his failings. Tony acknowledges his failing, and knows that his side of the argument has flaws, but sees it as a lesser of two evils. Steve is just bullheaded. Does he not understand how his actions could influence other vigilantes to potentially disregard authority?

- Like in BvS, the ideological aspect of the plot is pushed aside for the emotional aspect. That's fine, but like how the BvS title fight didn't need to happen, on Superman's side, and they were emotionally played with by the villain (two things that people criticized BvS for), Zemo basically does the same thing, and Stark starts a fight he didn't need to start. Stark knows that Bucky was brainwashed, and he knows that the villain JUST TOLD THEM HE WANTED THE AVENGERS TO DESTROY THEMSELVES....yet he goes along with it anyways? I can understand being angry, and wanting to detain Bucky, but fighting Cap to kill him was completely unnecessary, and makes him look stupid for doing exactly what the villain just told him to do. Where is the outcry for that poor storytelling? Stark is smart enough to know that the Avengers can't keep doing what they do, without limitations, but stupid enough to let the villain play him like this? I don't buy it. It should've have been his parents death that caused the fight....Rhodes should've died. Not by Vision tho, but by Cap, or Bucky, using weapons on this new quinjet (why was that quinjet just randomly there anyways, I may have missed that part) to stop War Machine and Iron Man from following them, and them shooting Rhodes down, but not knowing/realizing that they accidentally killed Rhodes in the process. If that happened, plus the video of Bucky killing his parents, and Cap still refused to surrender himself, or Bucky, then the fight would've made more sense, because Rhodes death would've been a direct result of Cap forcing this conflict, and Stark would be driven to bring him in to FINALLY face consequences.

Anyways, overall, I did enjoy this movie. At first, I gave it a 7.5, but after thinking about it more, it's moved down to a 7/10. The plot is just as weak as BvS, but is told much better, the character are balanced a bit better, the new characters were better implemented, and the main characters are given more character moments, so it's definitely the better movie.

Weird, never would've thought last year that post Civil War's release, Deadpool would be the best CBM of the year; better than both BvS and CW. Hopefully, X-Men Apocalypse can be as good, if not better (personally, I feel that it's going to the best CBM of the year).

Thoughts? Agree, disagree, or a bit of both?

[MindofShadow]

I am not touching the BvS comparidons bc, well, its youband that is the real reason you made tbis thread.

But tgey explained the spidey sense... he cant handle it. Its too much, thats why he wore goggles. And it did show itself at least twice... he noticed antman right before being punched and noticed when WS threw something at him

Damnit, vant help it....

Stark was an emotional wreck and has been sense IM2. IM2 he learns hes dying, Avengets he travels through a worm hole which messed him up all of im3, AoU he is further mentally tortured byvWanda and then creates a murderbot that gives him the guilt he has in CW.... then gets dumped by pepper

... tgen watches a video of his parents brutally murdered and the murderer is standing right there and his friend kbew about...

And he snapped. This movie was as much about the mental demons of Stark as much as anythibg else.

[Star_Jammer]

- This is a nitpick, but Spider-Man seemed nerfed during the airport scene. Like nerfed from Stark's footage of him, lol. We were shown him stopping a 3000lb car, going at 60mph (I think), instantly...but Cap over powered him, and (Gi)Ant-Man accidentaly knocked him out? I don't buy that. Also, the distinct lack of Spider Sense was quite striking. I'm guessing it's going to be treated like a secondary mutation in his solo movie, assuming he doesn't have it yet. Still, I very much enjoyed his scenes.

It's subtle, but his Spider-Sense is in the movie (he doesn't scream "Spidey-Sense, Tingling!"). Spider-Man was actively handling Falcon and he says something like "Uh oh" and immediately turns around and ducks from something Bucky threw at him.

- Wanda. Her character is a hypocritical character, and she makes no sense. We were told that she was going to get an arc in the movie, but we didn't get that at all. It's like she refuses to acknowledge that she's now become the Stark bomb/missile, that her, and Pietro, waited in fear to finally explode. While Tony takes the blame for AoU, she's the reason why that all happened. Yes, she reacts appropriately when she killed those people, but she didn't really react to Sokovia, and she didn't seem to dwell too much on the Lagos incident after the first Ross scene. It's like the speech that Vision gave completely flew over her head. Vision was proven right: They are not in control of everything, and their very presence created these "challenges", as he put it. Why did she betray Vision, and escape? Vision was right, and you think her killing those people would've hit her with Tony level guilt, but it didn't. She even chastised Clint for pulling his punches. I get it, but why is that person directly responsible for so many deaths in the movies she's been in the one to say that? Makes no sense. She should be on Tony's team, if she felt the guilt the way he did.

The people killed in the building in Lagos died, yes, but how many people did she save that were on the street where Crossbones and Steve were fighting? If she hadn't touched Crossbones at all, how many people would have died there instead?

She's disturbed that she wasn't able to save everyone; she didn't cause any deaths (that would be the guy who created the bomb and strapped it to himself), she just wasn't able to be in full control of the situation. But that's part of her character arc.

[TooFlyToFail]

It's subtle, but his Spider-Sense is in the movie (he doesn't scream "Spidey-Sense, Tingling!"). Spider-Man was actively handling Falcon and he says something like "Uh oh" and immediately turns around and ducks from something Bucky threw at him.

Still, he was hit too much despite it.

[TooFlyToFail]

I am not touching the BvS comparidons bc, well, its youband that is the real reason you made tbis thread.

But tgey explained the spidey sense... he cant handle it. Its too much, thats why he wore goggles. And it did show itself at least twice... he noticed antman right before being punched and noticed when WS threw something at him

Damnit, vant help it....

Stark was an emotional wreck and has been sense IM2. IM2 he learns hes dying, Avengets he travels through a worm hole which messed him up all of im3, AoU he is further mentally tortured byvWanda and then creates a murderbot that gives him the guilt he has in CW.... then gets dumped by pepper

... tgen watches a video of his parents brutally murdered and the murderer is standing right there and his friend kbew about...

And he snapped. This movie was as much about the mental demons of Stark as much as anythibg else.

I get that, but he was still told the villain's plan, and he immediately followed it. Yes, I made the BvS comparisons, but those are criticisms I shared with those that that said those were cons of BvS. I'm just pointing out that those same people aren't bringing up those cons with this movie. This, and BvS, share the some of the same problems, yet they're being over looked.

[JediKage]

Damn TooFlyToFail so much Haterade. And yet you rush to defend X-men and BvS like no one else.

[Star_Jammer]

Still, he was hit too much despite it.

OK so...Spider-Man never gets hit in the comics?

Guess you don't like any Spider-Man comics, then.

[Cyke]

Eh, too much to handle on a nice Friday night, but I got as far as the first two points:

Cons:

- This is a nitpick, but Spider-Man seemed nerfed during the airport scene. Like nerfed from Stark's footage of him, lol. We were shown him stopping a 3000lb car, going at 60mph (I think), instantly...but Cap over powered him, and (Gi)Ant-Man accidentaly knocked him out? I don't buy that. Also, the distinct lack of Spider Sense was quite striking. I'm guessing it's going to be treated like a secondary mutation in his solo movie, assuming he doesn't have it yet. Still, I very much enjoyed his scenes.

Two points about this:

1. In addition to the posters above me, we should also realize that this Spidey is still a youngin, only 6 months into his career. His inexperience is a major factor, but perhaps his powers aren't fully developed yet, either.

Not that the Sony films are any sort of canon, but both the Maguire and Garfield movies showed Spidey gaining stronger/faster/tougher feats in their second movies than their first, i.e. Maguire stopping the train and Garfield preventing Electro from electrocuting civilians in Times Square; feats that were probably out of their league in their first outings. Marvel said the next Spidey movie would be set after Civil War, so his solo outing will probably have more consistent and better feats, including a clearer Spider Sense. Indeed, if this were closer to the comics, Cap's punches shouldn't have affected Spidey so much simply because of durability. But maybe that can change in the future.

2. The movie had almost everyone holding back during the battle anyway. Wanda's telepathy would've been super helpful here, as well as Ant-Man's, um, ant control. But no one was out for any kill (at least not intentionally. Yes, we're looking at you, Vision.). And comic media (comics, tv shows, and now movies) have to go out of their way to make the matchups more even. Superman should've vaporized Batman in 2 seconds flat. Iron Man or War Machine should've just fired sonics at Cap's entire team from the start. But then we wouldn't get such kickass fights.

- The Sokovia Accords are put to the back burner, which can be accepted as long as other MCU movies (like Capt. Marvel, Ant-Man 2, and Spider-Man address it). An Iron Man 4 would really help in this regard.

We don't know much about the details of the Sokovia Accords, other than that they're directed solely at regulating the Avengers as an NGO peacekeeping force. We don't know what the Accords mean for separate heroes because it was never discussed indepth. I would if it could be that, by the end of the movie, the Sokovia Accords are either now moot because the Avengers have pretty much disbanded (Tony and Vision aren't enough, even with all their power; plus they signed on to be held accountable anyway) or the Accords allow the UN to create their own Avengers lineup (totally hypothetical on my part, but it's fun to imagine).

[Mormel]

RE:Wanda, I agree with much what you say, TFTF, even if I really enjoyed Liz Olsen's performance, her bond with Vision, and her being one of the team's heavy hitters. She let the Lagos debacle eat at her conscience for a little while, but later on it seemed that it became more about her and the restraining of her powers than about the casualties that had fallen. It doesn't get any real resolution or consequences for her character arc as far as I could tell, and I feel that's due to how many characters the movie is trying to fit into the narrative in the first place.

I'd rate 'Civil War' a bit higher personally, an 8.5 out of 10, and that's because I was still impressed with both the gorgeous fighting choreography and special effects, as well as the many good character moments. I kinda wish Marvel would have had the nerve to title this film 'Avengers Civil War' instead, since, as much screentime Steve gets, it is essentially an Avengers movie.

[GhostPirate]

For me, Avengers was the gold standard for super hero films... until now.

Great, consistent characterizations from writers McFeely and Markus, who obviously appreciate, understand, and love the characters they're writing. It's a rare thing in an ensemble of this nature, especially one with so many characters to feed, that they all are given multiple chances to truly shine. They all were and, imo, they all did.

The plotting was solid, too. There was real, legitimate, and relevant reasoning behind each side of the conflict. On the outside, I think it's reasonable that, in the process of saving thousands, even millions of lives, sometimes other innocent lives are the cost, which is easy to rationalize until one or more of those lives lost is your loved one. I'd even give the nod to a little well placed satire on the untrustworthiness and inherent hypocrisy of those who demand accountability (Forgetting Stark for a moment... seriously, SoS Ross is the arbiter of governmental imposed restraint? You know, the same guy who ran a covert shadow op on foreign soil to recover what he considered a weapon, in fact a guy trying to cure himself of a curse, then did it again on a crowded college campus? Then again in the middle of a population center, and helped create the Abomination in the process... all while, you know, backed by supposed governmental legitimacy? *He's* demanding accountability?). Yeah, I'll trust Steve Rogers, the guy who's reason is clouded by friendship, rather than lust for control, thanks.

I also loved how they managed to deftly intertwine the main conflict with the various personal tragedies. Having King T'Challa give the capper speech to Zemo made for a beautiful, poignant ending. His suit may have been Vibranium, but the character himself, and Boseman's performance was made of pure win. His solo feature can't come soon enough after this.

Speaking of... yeah, Spider-Man was all I expected from the MCU, and more. From his first interactions with Tony and Aunt May to the post-credit sequence ("he had a REALLY big friend"), Holland had me pretty well hooked as Peter Parker. Though let's not mention Stark drafting a 15-year old and illegally smuggling him to a foreign country in the name of upholding the law. I mean, even if he signed the Accords to join team IM, at his age how would that be legally binding -anywhere, even forgetting Peter Parker is an American citizen- without the consent of his legal guardian?

And the action was above and beyond.

Cap and WS escape, on the run... and a super-powered car chase??? (sponsored by Audi... but still- freakin' awesome!)

Speaking of awesome--- the airport. O.M.G. The. Airport.

Like the airport, though, I thought they nailed everything from the B-I-G action moments to the little character beats, like Falcon and Winter Soldier in the Bug.

I'll admit though, the fault I have is I don't see any cbm being able to come close to this until GotG 2 at the earliest (and they'd need to add Quasar/Phylla, Warlock, Nova and/or Captain Marvel as well as the rumored Mantis to have a chance)... gonna be a long wait till Blu Ray and I can tell I'm gonna be spending a lot of $$$ on this at the theater between now and then.

[MindofShadow]

I get that, but he was still told the villain's plan, and he immediately followed it. Yes, I made the BvS comparisons, but those are criticisms I shared with those that that said those were cons of BvS. I'm just pointing out that those same people aren't bringing up those cons with this movie. This, and BvS, share the some of the same problems, yet they're being over looked.

U get that.... yetvwant to make ridiculous compzrisons to BvS bc u think BvS got treated unfairly.

Dude just washed his dad get punched to death and then his mom strangled to death. On screen. Thevdude that did it is standing bext yo him. His friend that lied is also there.

Oh, and tony regrets the day his parents left. And iscalreasdy a wreck.

That compared to "go fight batman bc i hismd ur mom somewhere that u cant find with ur xray vision and super senses but batman can find eith ease"

Baan wanted to kill Superman bc if there was a one percent chance hes bad, it has to be done. His own words...then stops bc Martha.

That is the movie you are conparing this too. Have fun with that.

Marthaaaaaaaaaa

[dragonmp93]

Well, about why people only complains about Batman vs Superman ?, the grimdark makes it so much easier to spot the holes.

And to me, the Accords are as stupid than the Registration on the comics; because after the Winter Soldier and SHIELD's leak, turning the Avengers into the UN's attack dogs doesnt sound as a good idea, besides of the bureaucracy, there is also the hidden agendas and false flag operations.

And about why Ant-man and Hawkeye siding with Cap ?, the alternative is signing the Accords and becoming attack dogs.

[Rogue Star]

Just saw it. Very mixed feelings.

[JediKage]

Well, about why people only complains about Batman vs Superman ?, the grimdark makes it so much easier to spot the holes.

And to me, the Accords are as stupid than the Registration on the comics; because after the Winter Soldier and SHIELD's leak, turning the Avengers into the UN's attack dogs doesnt sound as a good idea, besides of the bureaucracy, there is also the hidden agendas and false flag operations.

And about why Ant-man and Hawkeye siding with Cap ?, the alternative is signing the Accords and becoming attack dogs.

Hawkeye was event on the docket as having to sign. Ant-man maybe.