Captain America: Civil War *SPOILERS*

[TooFlyToFail]

It's beyond just being "Good for their image", they needed to be held accountable. Steve stance was that the Avengers should essentially be above the law.

The incident that happened in Lagos could have been prevented if the Avengers had been in communication with the local authorities and worked with them to clear the area and ensure the safety of people. Instead the Avengers went into Lagos with no permission and set up an unsanctioned covert operation that resulted in the deaths of other people.

This is the most damning to Steve's stance.

[kalorama]

Does anyone else find the relationship between the Carters and Cap to be a little strange? Peggy had been dead for a day tops and Steve is already making out with her niece.

It's not like Steve and Cap were ever actually romantically involved. And even if they had been, whatever was between them basically ended in 1945, when Steve's ship went down.

[TooFlyToFail]

Except he didn't do that, not exactly.

He brought it to Ross' attention that Barnes had been framed, and Ross basically blew him off. Ross cared more about arresting Cap than solving who framed Bucky.

Plus, impulse control is a Stark habit

Yeah, but Steve wasn't trying to listen either. Tony was always the one that wanted to talk to Steve, not the other way. So Ross wasn't the only pig-headed one.

[TooFlyToFail]

Also, can people explain Black Widow in these movies?

Cap trusts her, and she trusts Cap. She knows Cap wants to keep Bucky safe, and out of trouble. So why would she release Bucky's files out to the public, where anyone, including Hydra agents, or other questionable, can access them?

During the movie she never knew that Bucky was innocent of the U.N. attack, or that he was being controlled when he escaped. So why did she help Cap? I get that they're close, but this could also kill Cap, and his actions affect all of them. What makes his plight so much more important, than everyone else's situation? She clearly doesn't trust Bucky enough to NOT release his files out into the public, so what gives? More poor writing?

[Kalen O.]

Yeah, but Steve wasn't trying to listen either. Tony was always the one that wanted to talk to Steve, not the other way. So Ross wasn't the only pig-headed one.

What are you talking about? Steve kept trying to tell Tony that Bucky was being framed, and Tony dismissed him, saying 'you can't be objective about this.' Tony didn't want to talk to Steve, he wanted to talk AT Steve, he wanted Steve to just do what he was told despite the fact that Steve kept saying 'I can't do that because everyone's trying to frame/kill/use my friend and he didn't do this thing'...which he was RIGHT about.

[Scott Taylor]

Stark would never go after Clint's family. He's a complex hero not a villain.

No, he's not, but he made some questionable choices in this movie. Recruiting Spider-man was pretty cool, but the kid is underage and obviously not ready to fight. It bothered me that it didn't bother Tony until after the airport fight, when he suddenly had this big revelation to bench the kid because he's too inexperienced. Ya think?

[Rogue Star]

Also, can people explain Black Widow in these movies?

Cap trusts her, and she trusts Cap. She knows Cap wants to keep Bucky safe, and out of trouble. So why would she release Bucky's files out to the public, where anyone, including Hydra agents, or other questionable, can access them?

During the movie she never knew that Bucky was innocent of the U.N. attack, or that he was being controlled when he escaped. So why did she help Cap? I get that they're close, but this could also kill Cap, and his actions affect all of them. What makes his plight so much more important, than everyone else's situation? She clearly doesn't trust Bucky enough to NOT release his files out into the public, so what gives? More poor writing?

Being a double agent is complicated. The best reason I can think of is that she cares more about helping Steve than helping Bucky. So if she saw Bucky dangling from a cliff she wouldn't try to save him BUT she would help Cap if he was trying to rescue Bucky.

[kalorama]

Also, can people explain Black Widow in these movies?

Cap trusts her, and she trusts Cap. She knows Cap wants to keep Bucky safe, and out of trouble. So why would she release Bucky's files out to the public, where anyone, including Hydra agents, or other questionable, can access them?

She wasn't picking and choosing specific SHIELD files to release in Winter Soldier. She basically just did a huge data dump much of which (as Zemo said) was encrypted. She didn't have time (or incentive) to be selective about what got out. So her specific feelings about Bucky were irrelevant at the time.

During the movie she never knew that Bucky was innocent of the U.N. attack, or that he was being controlled when he escaped. So why did she help Cap? I get that they're close, but this could also kill Cap, and his actions affect all of them. What makes his plight so much more important, than everyone else's situation? She clearly doesn't trust Bucky enough to NOT release his files out into the public, so what gives? More poor writing?

When Iron Man confronts them at the airport, Cap tries to tell him about Zemo framing Bucky and going after the other Winter Soldiers and Stark blows him off. If everyone's coms were open, Widow would have heard that. So she'd know Steve believes Bucky was framed and that he thinks he has proof. She trusts Steve and wanted to give him a chance to prove Bucky's innocence. Besides, she knew that all she was really doing was delaying the inevitable, and that the authorities would catch up to Steve eventually. She was basically just giving him a head start.

[Scott Taylor]

This is the most damning to Steve's stance.

Well, in this case, the "law" is pretty dodgy. In the first Avenger's movie they launched a nuclear strike against a New York full of civilians before gathering any intel on the aliens whatsoever, trying a conventional military solution or trying to negotiate. "Hell there are aliens attacking New York, lets nuke it!"

This is the government Tony was so quick to sign in with? The one that fired the nuke at New York? The one that also, by the way, tried to establish a network of weapons in the sky to watch over everyone in the entire world, big brother like. Cap is morally right to rebel against that government.

[dragonmp93]

This is the most damning to Steve's stance.

Sure...............................

Do you remember that Quicksilver had to open fire with a assault rifle just to get the attention of the police ?.
And what they were supposed to say ?, an ex-Hydra terrorist may try to steal a bio-weapon from your labs ?.

[Kalen O.]

Yeah the thing about Widow is she was never Team Iron Man because she believed in the Accords or agreed with them. She just thought it was inevitable that the government would try and take control of them sooner or later and she felt that the Accords were the best shot at the Avengers maintaining SOME control over the situation. That by playing along now, they would give themselves more room to work with whereas if they waited for the governments to force something similar on them at a later date, they'd have a lot less options. So she always viewed the Accords as a necessary evil, the best of a bad situation, but she was wary of them from the start. And then at the airport fight, when it became clear to her that they were causing more harm than good, like she told Stark later...they played this wrong. She thought they were doing the best choice available to them by going along with the Accords, but once it was clear that wasn't working, she was like screw this, I'm out. I'm helping Cap do what needs to be done.

[TooFlyToFail]

She wasn't picking and choosing specific SHIELD files to release in Winter Soldier. She basically just did a huge data dump much of which (as Zemo said) was encrypted. She didn't have time (or incentive) to be selective about what got out. So her specific feelings about Bucky were irrelevant at the time.



When Iron Man confronts them at the airport, Cap tries to tell him about Zemo framing Bucky and going after the other Winter Soldiers and Stark blows him off. If everyone's coms were open, Widow would have heard that. So she'd know Steve believes Bucky was framed and that he thinks he has proof. She trusts Steve and wanted to give him a chance to prove Bucky's innocence. Besides, she knew that all she was really doing was delaying the inevitable, and that the authorities would catch up to Steve eventually. She was basically just giving him a head start.

1) That's still extremely irresponsible, and stupid. How can she assume no one would ever be able to decipher the files? It's like she thought that Hydra agents AREN'T scattered throughout the world. So this conflict is mainly her fault. Wow, that loses her character a lot of cred.

2) I'm guessing that Stark blew him off because Steve kept refusing to talk before, so why should he give the courtesy Steve wouldn't? Stark tries to bring up taking responsibility, and cooperation with the world governments, and Steve irrationally, and arrogantly, says that the people involved with the U.N. can be corrupted, or have agendas, because they're people....as if he is somehow immune to human flaw. So yeah, I can see Stark not wanting to hear anything from Captain Holier-Than-Thou by then.

[TooFlyToFail]

Sure...............................

Do you remember that Quicksilver had to open fire with a assault rifle just to get the attention of the police ?.
And what they were supposed to say ?, an ex-Hydra terrorist may try to steal a bio-weapon from your labs ?.

That doesn't change the fact that the Avengers coordinating with local authorities makes their job easier. That bit with Pietro was just one, of many, needless plays at humor in that movie.

Besides, that wouldn't have happened if they didn't push Stark to make Ultron in the first place.

[dragonmp93]

Also, can people explain Black Widow in these movies?

Cap trusts her, and she trusts Cap. She knows Cap wants to keep Bucky safe, and out of trouble. So why would she release Bucky's files out to the public, where anyone, including Hydra agents, or other questionable, can access them?

During the movie she never knew that Bucky was innocent of the U.N. attack, or that he was being controlled when he escaped. So why did she help Cap? I get that they're close, but this could also kill Cap, and his actions affect all of them. What makes his plight so much more important, than everyone else's situation? She clearly doesn't trust Bucky enough to NOT release his files out into the public, so what gives? More poor writing?

Well, she was uploading the whole archive, so it's not like she simply could search Bucky's file and keep it hidden ?.

What are you talking about? Steve kept trying to tell Tony that Bucky was being framed, and Tony dismissed him, saying 'you can't be objective about this.' Tony didn't want to talk to Steve, he wanted to talk AT Steve, he wanted Steve to just do what he was told despite the fact that Steve kept saying 'I can't do that because everyone's trying to frame/kill/use my friend and he didn't do this thing'...which he was RIGHT about.

Besides, that Stark is too traumatized and just want to surrender any responsibility to the UN.

Well, in this case, the "law" is pretty dodgy. In the first Avenger's movie they launched a nuclear strike against a New York full of civilians before gathering any intel on the aliens whatsoever, trying a conventional military solution or trying to negotiate. "Hell there are aliens attacking New York, lets nuke it!"

This is the government Tony was so quick to sign in with? The one that fired the nuke at New York? The one that also, by the way, tried to establish a network of weapons in the sky to watch over everyone in the entire world, big brother like. Cap is morally right to rebel against that government.

Yeah, and before someone says that it was Hydra's plan; the only part of Project Oversight that was Hydra's is the future superhero algorithm.

[kalorama]

1) That's still extremely irresponsible, and stupid. How can she assume no one would ever be able to decipher the files? So this conflict is mainly her fault. Wow, that loses her character a lot of cred.

She wasn't assuming no one would ever decipher the files. She wanted someone to decipher the files. That was the whole point of releasing them, to reveal to the world the extent to which Hydra had infiltrated SHIELD and to rally public sentiment and international authority against them.

2) I'm guessing that Stark blew him off because Steve kept refusing to talk before, so why should he give the courtesy Steve wouldn't? Stark tries to bring up taking responsibility, and cooperation with the world governments, and Steve irrationally, and arrogantly, says that the people involved with the U.N. can be corrupted, or have agendas, because they're people....as if he is somehow immune to human flaw. So yeah, I can see Stark not wanting to hear anything from Captain Holier-Than-Thou by then.

Which is completely beside the point, as I wasn't suggesting that Stark should have listened to Cap nor criticizing him for not doing so. My point was that the overheard exchange between Tony and Steve likely served as the catalyst for Widow's decision to help Steve and Bucky escape, which was the actual question you raised in your previous post.