Captain America: Civil War *SPOILERS*

[Goggindowner]

Cap was against the Accord because it removed the Avengers' choice in how they get involved in conflict. Signing it meant being lapdogs, going wherever they were told, whether it was a just cause or not. This explanation is literally said, almost word for word, in the movie.

As for his cohorts' motivations (beyond sharing his opinion about choice):

Falcon- Goes where Cap goes, so it was always going to be that way

Bucky- Again, duh

Wanda- She dealt with her guilt, but how was she ever going to make amends if she was sidelined? What Cap told her was, basically, you can't always save everybody, but we do what we do to save as many as we can. Well she basically got grounded by Stark, so she wasn't going to be saving anybody, and what are the chances the UN would ever put her in the field once they took control of the Avengers' activities? None of that was ever explicitly stated, but I thought there was enough to get there.

Hawkeye- Yeah, he retired rather than sign the Accord. Yeah, he has a family and a life. But it was never stated that he wanted to retire or was happy with what was happening. He felt strongly enough to quit rather than sign, so it isn't that much of stretch that he felt strongly enough to take action and do something about it.

Ant-Man- Him joining Cap's side has basically the same motivation as Spiderman joining Iron Man's side. He was called up to the big leagues and was just happy to be included. It's the weakest of all the motivations, but it is literally the exact same as Spiderman's. If you think about it, Ant-Man and Spiderman both had plenty to lose for joining either side of the fight.

Zemo's Plan- We are never told that he explicitly intended for Cap and Iron Man to follow him to Siberia. He may have had no idea they were coming until they got there. If you think about it, once he had the proof about the Starks' death, he could reveal it whenever and know that it would put Cap and Iron Man at odds over Bucky. He may have just gotten lucky and hatched his plan sooner than intended. His only stated mission in Siberia was killing the other super soldiers kept there. The Accord wasn't part of his plan, but its entirely likely that he just took advantage of the situation once all of that started to shake out. The team was already dividing and he needed to push the wedge deeper. The Bucky reveal alone would have torn the two main Avengers apart, everything else was just icing on the cake.

I really enjoyed the movie. A lot of the plot holes that are being brought up I didn't see. I thought that most of it was pretty well insinuated or hinted at. Yeah, some of it wasn't very obvious and could have been made clearer, but it was there. I never saw BvS so I can't really draw any direct comparisons between the two films, but just from what I've heard I can't see how BvS could possibly be better that CA:CW. It wasn't perfect, but it was pretty damn good.

[kalorama]

Yeah, then in that case, that kinda makes me more annoyed lol. Because revealing what happened in Siberia would have invited questions about how Tony knew to find Steve in Siberia, which would have invited questions about the lapse in the security feed in the Raft....and for there to be no visible consequences (or even acknowledgment of suspicion on Ross' part) to Tony hacking a supermax prison, hiding knowledge of Cap and Bucky's whereabouts from the UN appointed authority who'd sent Tony after them in the first place, going off to Russia without authorization, permission, or knowledge from either the UN or Russia, engaging as Iron Man in a vigilante capacity, and then failing to bring in either Bucky or Steve....all without any kind of acknowledgment from the movie as to what made this different from Ross and the UN's reasons for keeping the Avengers locked up....that just really doesn't work IMO. It invalidates a lot of the thematic conflict of the movie. Like, I don't feel that you can really justify leaving something as huge as that out, when your entire movie is about accountability. It's kind of a necessary story beat.

I mean if your official, sanctioned Avenger isn't shown to face any sort of consequences for acting outside of the Accords he signed of his own free will, then what is even the point of them, in story?

The only people who know that Stark supposedly "acted outside the Accords" are the people who were in Siberia and Secretary Ross. And since Stark's actions, "sanctioned" or not, resulted in the apprehension of the person actually responsible for the U.N. bombing--and since there's no credible way Ross could punish Stark without it coming out that he basically ignored Stark when Tony tried to tell him about Zemo--then Ross has plenty of incentive to keep his mouth shut and give Stark a pass. It'd be different if Stark's actions had resulted in another public catastrophe with collateral damage and loss of innocent life, but that wasn't the case. It happened in isolation, way from public scrutiny, which gives everybody plenty of wiggle room for deniability.

As Secretary of State, Ross is a political appointee and taking the credit for what goes right on your watch, even if you had nothing to do with it, is the smart political move.

[Sain]

Pros:
Cons:

- This is a nitpick, but Spider-Man seemed nerfed during the airport scene. Like nerfed from Stark's footage of him, lol. We were shown him stopping a 3000lb car, going at 60mph (I think), instantly...but Cap over powered him, and (Gi)Ant-Man accidentaly knocked him out? I don't buy that. Also, the distinct lack of Spider Sense was quite striking. I'm guessing it's going to be treated like a secondary mutation in his solo movie, assuming he doesn't have it yet. Still, I very much enjoyed his scenes.

Please correct me, anyone, but if I'm not mistaken during spidey's terminal brawl with Bucky and Falcon when Bucky through a piece of a vehicle or building foundation at spidey, he soon returns it and says the snarky remark that goes along the lines of 'Hey, I think this is yours!'. Before Peter caught it I believe they showed a very quick tell of the spidey sense by using his expressive eyes.I also think there was a background blur and the briefest of slowdowns.

I loved the visual story telling of pretty much everything. I didn't think Black Panther and Spider-Man would steal the show as much as they did, but...they did! They both commanded the screen.

Black Panther, I'll start off by saying that he rapidly become one of favorite of the MCU characters. His accent was even great, I loved hearing it in battle. His grievance, emotions, his effing tenacity, perseverance, and relentlessness to hunt down his target is unlike anything we've seen before. His over all being was absolutely palpable. He made me like I thought I'd feel with Falcon, and what I've always wanted to feel since War Machine's debut. I instantly wanted to see his solo film, before the movie even ended. I love how they had one of his female warrior bodygaurds in the film. It's funny, I've seen so much of Black Widow but only 3 seconds of a female warrior Wakandan and I immediately felt like Widow would lose that fight, lol. Ommggosh, the suit, the claws his intro, beautiful. Also it could be just me, but I think they made a slight effort for the sun to be glaring behind him whenever he jumped in to make his presence. Nice aesthetic touch.

Spider-Man. I absoultely loved how he was depicted to be able to hold his own against these older more experienced people, but also showed so many elements of his noob status as a hero and that he's still just a kid. I was right there geeking out with him every step of the way. Aunt May caught me by surprise, I saw googled Marisa as soon as she was cast and felt nothing for her, which was fine, it was just 'ok cool'. But damn, during the last credit scene with Peter, as she smiled and walked away I started sweatin, hahah.

Winter Soldier . So glad we got as much 'Winter Soldier' in here as possible, before he became more 'Bucky' again. The transitions were smooth though, a lot of conflict, brainwashing, self doubt, suffering, etc. Loved his fights, love the use of the arm, also loved the destruction of it, I didn't expect that. I'm sure T'Challa will hook him up with a new vibranium one when he wakes up, decked out with blu-ray, wifi, and sparkly Red Star. Speaking of Red and Stars, I think I want that Winter Soldier secret journal. Apart of me wishes they used his mask from Winter Soldier, I know people know who he is now but it added a notch of badassness to his look. I definitely get it though, we needed to see his emotions now more than ever in this film. At least they had it when they took him out of his packaging in 1991, damn was that some beautiful imagery. Weird thought, what if they inverted his metal arm color scheme to match the book? Another weird thought, since Marvel loves to tweak aestetics I bet good ole' Buchanan gets a haircut the next time he comes out...somehow lol.

Black Widow. She had her best choreo in this film, her battles with Crossbone's grunts were jawdropping. I still would like to see the colder side to Natasha. Great point, in the recent CBR article surrounding the '10 burning questions' is that she is now MIA, and I love, love, love that. So far these Marvel ending lose ends are great, they leave me intrigued, theorizing, and they change the dynamic of the character interactions.

I'll drop the rest of the characters in a later post.

[TheCatBastet]

2) And what if she says no? Does Cap say "Oh well, I tried."? Even if Cap asked, he was setting an example of not laying low, so i would've been a "do as I say, not as I do" scenario.

So what if she said no? She's not Tony's slave. She might be considered his employee (if he is footing the bill for the Avengers, as stated in AoU), but employers don't control their employees' private lives. She was actually okay with being suspended from Avengers duties for a while. She just wanted to go to the grocery store and buy some spices, but Vision refused to let her leave. And that's how she found out about Tony deciding she should be restricted to the Avengers compound.

[ZeroBG82]

Zemo's Plan- We are never told that he explicitly intended for Cap and Iron Man to follow him to Siberia. He may have had no idea they were coming until they got there. If you think about it, once he had the proof about the Starks' death, he could reveal it whenever and know that it would put Cap and Iron Man at odds over Bucky. He may have just gotten lucky and hatched his plan sooner than intended. His only stated mission in Siberia was killing the other super soldiers kept there. The Accord wasn't part of his plan, but its entirely likely that he just took advantage of the situation once all of that started to shake out. The team was already dividing and he needed to push the wedge deeper. The Bucky reveal alone would have torn the two main Avengers apart, everything else was just icing on the cake.

This. Zemo's entire plan hinges not on the events in Siberia, but on FINDING THE RECORDING, which is what he's after the whole movie. Once he gets it, Steve and Tony showing up together is just a happy accident. In fact, most of what the Avengers on both sides do throughout the movie is inadvertently make Zemo's comparatively small moves much, much more effective than they need be.

Zemo is an opportunist, but he's good at reading people. He knows how Cap will likely react to the frame up of Bucky in Vienna, and he knows how Stark will react to the recording. That's his whole plan to divide the team. Just those two moves. Everything else that happens isn't some part of a masterfully manipulative plan, it's the Avengers cocking up the whole situation and making Zemo's job even easier. This Zemo isn't a schemer, he's a dog going straight for the throat.

[Rogue Star]

Cap was against the Accord because it removed the Avengers' choice in how they get involved in conflict. Signing it meant being lapdogs, going wherever they were told, whether it was a just cause or not. This explanation is literally said, almost word for word, in the movie.

As for his cohorts' motivations (beyond sharing his opinion about choice):

Falcon- Goes where Cap goes, so it was always going to be that way

Bucky- Again, duh

Wanda- She dealt with her guilt, but how was she ever going to make amends if she was sidelined? What Cap told her was, basically, you can't always save everybody, but we do what we do to save as many as we can. Well she basically got grounded by Stark, so she wasn't going to be saving anybody, and what are the chances the UN would ever put her in the field once they took control of the Avengers' activities? None of that was ever explicitly stated, but I thought there was enough to get there.

Hawkeye- Yeah, he retired rather than sign the Accord. Yeah, he has a family and a life. But it was never stated that he wanted to retire or was happy with what was happening. He felt strongly enough to quit rather than sign, so it isn't that much of stretch that he felt strongly enough to take action and do something about it.

Ant-Man- Him joining Cap's side has basically the same motivation as Spiderman joining Iron Man's side. He was called up to the big leagues and was just happy to be included. It's the weakest of all the motivations, but it is literally the exact same as Spiderman's. If you think about it, Ant-Man and Spiderman both had plenty to lose for joining either side of the fight.

Zemo's Plan- We are never told that he explicitly intended for Cap and Iron Man to follow him to Siberia. He may have had no idea they were coming until they got there. If you think about it, once he had the proof about the Starks' death, he could reveal it whenever and know that it would put Cap and Iron Man at odds over Bucky. He may have just gotten lucky and hatched his plan sooner than intended. His only stated mission in Siberia was killing the other super soldiers kept there. The Accord wasn't part of his plan, but its entirely likely that he just took advantage of the situation once all of that started to shake out. The team was already dividing and he needed to push the wedge deeper. The Bucky reveal alone would have torn the two main Avengers apart, everything else was just icing on the cake.

I really enjoyed the movie. A lot of the plot holes that are being brought up I didn't see. I thought that most of it was pretty well insinuated or hinted at. Yeah, some of it wasn't very obvious and could have been made clearer, but it was there. I never saw BvS so I can't really draw any direct comparisons between the two films, but just from what I've heard I can't see how BvS could possibly be better that CA:CW. It wasn't perfect, but it was pretty damn good.

Good point about Zemo. He never actually said that he knew they would all arrive there at the base, though he could have suspected that the Avengers would eventually track him down (he'd be a fool not to). It could have been a mere matter of him having his opportunity fall into his lap. Convenient, yes, but not impossible. It's not one of those things that should make or break a person's opinion of the movie. It seems like nitpicks these days have become thorns in people's sides. Are we getting spoiled already? Have we forgotten how far comic book movies have come? I haven't complained about much yet because I feel like most of my complaints are with things that I didn't enjoy, not things that are actually wrong with the movie. I hope to see it again tonight to see if a second viewing increases my enjoyment of the film.

[TooFlyToFail]

Good point about Zemo. He never actually said that he knew they would all arrive there at the base, though he could have suspected that the Avengers would eventually track him down (he'd be a fool not to). It could have been a mere matter of him having his opportunity fall into his lap. Convenient, yes, but not impossible. It's not one of those things that should make or break a person's opinion of the movie. It seems like nitpicks these days have become thorns in people's sides. Are we getting spoiled already? Have we forgotten how far comic book movies have come? I haven't complained about much yet because I feel like most of my complaints are with things that I didn't enjoy, not things that are actually wrong with the movie. I hope to see it again tonight to see if a second viewing increases my enjoyment of the film.

This what I've been saying about BvS. There are flaws, yes (I gave it 6/10), but a lot of the complaints are "it's too dark", "this isn't my Bats/Supes", etc. Those are tastes, not really flaws.

[Rogue Star]

This what I've been saying about BvS. There are flaws, yes (I gave it 6/10), but a lot of the complaints are "it's too dark", "this isn't my Bats/Supes", etc. Those are tastes, not really flaws.

I've been saying the same thing about BvS. To be honest, I enjoyed BvS more than Civil War after one viewing (mainly because of Batman) but it definitely had editing issues and too many set-ups/easter eggs for future movies. My main technical complaints about Civil War involve the overuse of that godforsaken shaky cam, distractingly obvious CGI and the constant location hopping in the beginning. My other issue with Civil War is that the movie just failed to pull me in. I felt like I was just watching stuff happen. But maybe that has more to do with my expectations for the Russos after what they did with CA: The Winter Soldier. I'm still unable to come up with a score for the movie. Unlike with past films, I have a feeling this one might take multiple viewings and a good long while for me to come to a decision.

[tabo61]

I liked how Zemo's reasons for his actions had nothing to do with the typical super villain motives like trying to take over the world for example.

[Batman#22]

I finished the movie today and I thought it was pretty great. Personally I loved CA: The Winter Soldier more but I still thought this was a compelling movie. I enjoyed the set up where even though the Avengers saved the city from germ warfare, Crossbones still killed himself while Scarlet Witch failed to save the day. I loved how personal things got between the two Avengers teams. At first I hated War Machine for how he talked to Cap just for trying to save his friend, I felt sorry for him when Falcon accidentally crippled him. I liked the role Black Panther played in the movie. I wasn't expecting him to have a decent back story, least with one that had revenge in it. After seeing how the new Spider-Man actor portrayed the character, I already completely hate the direction Disney/Sony is taking SM. His voice was way too light and Aunt May was way too young. Still, I liked how he was written. At first I couldn't make sense of what Baron Zemo's plan was, but I finally caught on at the end. Any way I liked how conflicted Black Widow was with choosing sides. I respected her for making the right decision at the end. At first I was rooting for Cap, but when Zemo revealed how Bucky killed Iron Man's parents, I couldn't help but root for him. I loved how personal Cap and Iron Man's battle was, especially when Iron Man said "YOU DON'T DESERVE THAT SHIELD!!!". I was happy that Cap saved his teammates at the end.

I give this movie 4.5 star out of 5.

[90'sCartoonMan]

This one was tough. I think it definitely earned all the moments, things that have been built up in the MCU, and wow, what a performance from RD Jr! Stark can still have his humorous quips, but the responsibility of being Iron Man has really weighed on him. Finally Cap and Sharon! And reuniting with Bucky, again, well earned. Although them ignoring Fury and his Helicarrier SHIELD as well as Coulson and his Secret SHIELD (which the US president knows about) feels a little lazy. The Accords should have just as much, if not more, to do with SHIELD than the Avengers.

The thing is, I hated the Civil War story in the comics and was willing to reserve judgment, and while the Sokovia Accords made a lot more sense in both purpose and execution than the Superhuman Registration Act...I still didn't enjoy these elements of the movie. Tony was too controlling and emotional, Cap should've shared all his information, and Spider-Man...::sigh:: The Peter Parker bits were fine and all, but I was rooting against him the entire time, so I didn't enjoy anything he did as Spider-Man. Not a huge fan of hero vs. hero fights in general (misunderstood skirmishes are fine, but not when it's your big draw).

The only characters I really, completely liked were Widow and Panther. Nat was clearly conflicted and her "one hand on the steering wheel" logic was probably the best argument. She didn't want any hard feelings with Clint and didn't have the heart to stop Cap from leaving. T'Challa was able to appropriately assign blame, despite his personal tragedy. I kind of liked Hawkeye too (and I feel like he gets closer and closer to his loudmouthed, outspoken and somewhat rebellious comic book counterpart with each movie), but...he should've sat this one out of the sake of his family.

RIP Margaret "Peggy" Carter. You were a true treasure. I liked how Sharon said Cap's famous CW line as part of the eulogy.

I've go too say these movies have been amazing for Falcon. Anthony Mackie is great.


Falcon was a bottom rung character who has been elevated to a top character.

Yeah, and he's on a roll too. Fourth consecutive Marvel movie for him.

It's not like Steve and Cap were ever actually romantically involved. And even if they had been, whatever was between them basically ended in 1945, when Steve's ship went down.

Yeah. I feel like Steve's relationship to Peggy in the present day was more of him connecting with an old friend and someone who he could bond with through many shared experiences. As he said in Age of Ultron, he regrets acting too late and he's not going to make the same mistake with Sharon. Agreed with everything you said...except I'm pretty sure "Steve" and "Cap" are the same person.

[Lax]

I enjoyed the movie.

Captain America's argument was 100% right, the Ross argument was 100% wrong. The only reason humanity is even alive to complain in the first place is because the Avengers did what they thought was right as individuals.

Put that in your slide show, Ross.

[TooFlyToFail]

I enjoyed the movie.

Captain America's argument was 100% right, the Ross argument was 100% wrong. The only reason humanity is even alive to complain in the first place is because the Avengers did what they thought was right as individuals.

Put that in your slide show, Ross.

Really tho?

- Thor stupidly left Loki's scepter on Earth after Avengers

- Wanda, who manipulated Banner, and Stark, is now an Avenger

- Stark created Ultron

- The events of AoU are entirely the fault of people who were/are Avengers

- Steve has kept the location of Bucky secret from his teammates, and leaves him to his own devices...where a Hydra agent could find him. He also deliberately withheld information.

The safest hands are not theirs. There needs to be cooperation from both angles. No one side is right.

[dragonmp93]

Really tho?

- Thor stupidly left Loki's scepter on Earth after Avengers

- Wanda, who manipulated Banner, and Stark, is now an Avenger

- Stark created Ultron

- The events of AoU are entirely the fault of people who were/are Avengers

Well, if SHIELD, a gubernamental organization, wouldnt have been messing around with that cosmic cube Loki hadnt had arrived to Earth in the first place.

- Steve has kept the location of Bucky secret from his teammates, and leaves him to his own devices...where a Hydra agent could find him. He also deliberately withheld information.

And do what with him ?, only the directly involved with the project would know how to activate his brainwashing; or do you think that the red book is a "Winter Soldier for Dummies" user manual ?.

The safest hands are not theirs. There needs to be cooperation from both angles. No one side is right.

So politicians are the safe hands ?; i wonder who are presidential candidates of the MCU's US, or the presidents of certain latinamerican countries.

[TooFlyToFail]

Well, if SHIELD, a gubernamental organization, wouldnt have been messing around with that cosmic cube Loki hadnt had arrived to Earth in the first place.



And do what with him ?, only the directly involved with the project would know how to activate his brainwashing; or do you think that the red book is a "Winter Soldier for Dummies" user manual ?.



So politicians are the safe hands ?; i wonder who are presidential candidates of the MCU's US, or the presidents of certain latinamerican countries.

1) So? After Shield messed up, Thor followed suit almost immediately by leaving the Infinity Stone on Earth somewhere randomly.

2) Uh...use him, like they did before? Is that not what Zemo did, and he's not even a Hydra agent. Also, why didn't Bucky bring up the other soldiers before?

3) I said cooperation. Like T'Challa, Stark and Rodgers on a small council with Ross, and others. That way, everyone can keep tabs on each other.